Your Extraordinary Mind: Integrated Psychedelics with Zach Leary
SHOW NOTES | TRANSCRIPT
In this extraordinary episode, Zach Leary, Author of "Your Extraordinary Mind - Psychedelics in the 21st Century and How to Use Them" and Host of the Psychedelics Then and Now podcast, offers a deeply personal and revolutionary perspective on consciousness, healing, and the human growth potential. He opens up about his extraordinary journey through the psychedelic landscape, sharing intimate insights from growing up to finding his path of healing and transformation.
Over the last 30 years, Zach has found himself in the center of the psychedelic movement with a front row seat for the modern renaissance while also having first-hand knowledge of the historical legacy of the counterculture's influence on psychedelic exploration.
After spending many years as a digital marketing expert for some of the world's largest brands, Zach had a wake-up call 13 years ago that thrust him back into the center of the psychedelic cyclone thanks to the influence of his primary teacher and mentor, Ram Dass. Since then, he has found his unique voice and method in being able to contribute to the revolutionary new psychedelic movement of the 21st Century.
Join us for a deeply moving conversation that bridges personal narrative with collective transformation, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the heart of the psychedelic movement and the potential for individual and societal healing.
In this Episode, we cover:
Zach on finding his path
Transformation and Connection with Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, and Neem Karoli Baba
On writing “Your Extraordinary Mind”
The Role of Love and Psychedelics
The Concept of the Sacred Feminine and Masculine within each individual
What makes a good Integration?
The Idea of Surrender
Collective consciousness and the Current State of Human Evolution
The Impact of Psychedelics on Collective Consciousness
Zach's Current Work and Future Plans
Helpful links:
Zach Leary - Author of Your Extraordinary Mind: Psychedelics In the 21st Century and How to Use Them on Amazon.
Follow on Instagram @zachlearydrome, Facebook @zachleary and Linkedin @zachleary
The Psychedelic Studies Intensive Program is an 8 week course with Zach
The Psychedelics Then and Now podcast (formerly the MAPS Podcast)
Psychedelics Alter Belief, Not Just Perception by Christine on Substack
+1-415-471-7010
Founder, Rosebud Woman, Award Winning Intimate and Body Care
Host, The Rose Woman on Love and Liberation: Listen, Like, Share & Subscribe on Apple Podcast | Google Podcasts | Spotify
NEW BOOK: The Nine Lives of Woman: Sensual, Sexual and Reproductive Stages from Birth to 100, Order in Print or on Kindle
Subscribe: The Museletter on Substack
TRANSCRIPT
Zach Leary 0:02
I can be afraid to show love and having that awakened and shown to me that it is a safe place to hang out in. It's a beautiful experience.
Christine Mason 0:14
Hello, everybody. It's Christine Marie Mason, your host for this podcast, the rose woman on love and liberation, walking out in the world, trying to both stay accountable, check in with the news, know what's going on, but to trust my own instincts, to trust my own experience of the people around me, of the real, tangible world of nature, of my true encounters in my own body, and not so much what's presented to me through media, through social media, through the news, because I think we're getting a lot of manipulation out there. And what we know to be true is that when we walk in the world as love, we walk in the world with a sense of justice and fairness and kindness and inclusion, that that's the life that we end up creating around us, and that it's very contagious to be a node on the network of light. So as we move into today's topic, which is how to really drop into your own extraordinary mind, and it's a really interesting and warm episode, I just want to lead with this reminder that you are the world, that the way we each walk forward in the world is the world that unfolds. So to do that today with consciousness, remembering exactly who you are and what you came here to do this week on the rose woman podcast, I sit down with writer, facilitator and legacy holder, Zach Leary, son of the iconic Timothy Leary, student of Ram Dass and author of the new book your extraordinary mind. Together, we explore what it means to grow up inside the psychedelic movement, and how Zach found his own Dharma after years of addiction, recovery and self searching. We talk about identity, love, devotion and the essential role of integration, not only after psychedelic journeys, but in life itself. We look at the evolution of the masculine, the sacred feminine, within the power of contemplative practice and how transformation becomes sustainable when it's grounded in action. I love this conversation. It's funny, it's tender, it's vulnerable. He's so wise, and we get a real glimpse into the human behind the lineage. So please enjoy this conversation with Zach Leary.
Zach Leary 2:25
You're growing up with thing in my case, just so the listeners, know, growing up with Timothy Leary, you know? I mean, most people kind of default to asking the, you know, when they ask the question, Oh, wow. It must have been so amazing. And what was it like? Wow. Tell me all the stories and it must have been just beyond amazing. And certainly there are parts of that that are true, you know, the people that I was exposed to, and, you know, sort of growing up in that environment full of some of the great thinkers of the 20th century, and psychedelic and otherwise, artists, philosophers, movie stars and so on and so forth, you know, certainly has this kind of air of kind of exposure, of kind of cosmic pixie dust exposure that definitely stays with you forever. On the flip side, you know, and it's kind of like a cliche of any like you said, Any, not even just famous, any big personality or super successful parent, it's very easy to fall into kind of the zone of not knowing who you are. You know, the trap of not understanding your own identity. And that was certainly the case with me when Timmy died, you know, I was just left sort of like, oh, I don't know what to do, I don't know who I am, I don't know what I'm good at. I don't know how to ask a girl out. I don't know how to pay a bill. I don't know what I'm interested in, you know, all of these kind of basic life things, and it took a long time to kind of course correct that. And then initially, well, you know, through that darkness and suffering, I, you know, got into substance abuse, and was very, very difficult, got into recovery at a young age. But when I, you know, I've also relapsed a couple times, but, you know, and then when I got clean and sort of found recovery and found my path, I thought, you know, the message that I was getting from the universe was to get as far away from it as possible. You know, I went into whole other world, digital marketing and advertising, and I thought that was the thing to do, until I woke up one day, and really, thanks to Ram Das, realized that it wasn't the thing to do, that I wasn't following my own Dharma that was kind of living life by default. Yeah, it's really through my time with Ram Dass that things kind of began to shift
Christine Mason 4:41
that's so interesting. Can be controlled by copying your parent or your influential figure, or by living in reaction or opposition.
Zach Leary 4:49
They're both out of control, right, right? They're both a form of control. Also this
Christine Mason 4:53
piece on the irony of addiction, when your parent is a. Voice for the liberating quality of substances and molecules, and then you're living out the opposition story in some in some way, it's such an interesting overall dynamic, not to minimize your personal suffering in it, but, but how those polarities were playing out? Oh,
Zach Leary 5:15
absolutely. And that was, you know, when I first got into trouble with, uh, substances. You know, that was part of, also part of the the pain points. Christine was sort of like, oh, like, I made good on the cliche, like, the drug fueled flag waving dad, and there's his son, you know, strung out, you know, of course, he is, you know. And that really added to my shame and guilt. Because, you know, Timothy was, of course, a cognitive libertarian, but he was also very anti addiction, and using these tools very wisely and cautiously and for the benefit of your own evolution, not to numb yourself out and escape. So that weighed on me. Of course it did. It was a very heavy weight, actually,
Christine Mason 5:59
the difference between cognitive liberty and not being addicted, because when you're addicted, you're also not free. What a beautiful note.
Zach Leary 6:05
Yeah, you're trapped. You know, you're absolutely a prisoner of of the compound and of your tendency to want to escape and numb the feelings out. And you think it's the solution, and at first, it does sort of act as a solutionary sort of method. It's like the methodology tricks you into, oh, this is a solution. I don't feel the pain and I feel good. But then that morphs into, you know, years and years of time wasted, kind of just wallowing in, again, more lack of identity, not knowing who you are, and running away from
Christine Mason 6:39
that. Tell about meeting Ram Das? About meeting Ram Das,
Zach Leary 6:43
oh god. Well, I've known Ram Das my entire life. He grew up with him. He was always around. And when I was younger, definitely a kid. But well into my teenage years, anytime rd would come around, would just scare the shit out of me. I was like, I was like, Who is this guy? What is this shtick? What is this I thing that he does? You feel like,
Zach Leary 7:05
what I think? What are you talking about? You mean like Soul gaze.
Zach Leary 7:09
That's soul gaze and just that beam, you know? And it just was like, when you're a teenager, it scares the shit of you, you know? How can anyone be in that zone all of the time. So I mean, I loved him because he was so funny and welcoming and really sweet and always very kind to me, but I was also couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle that exposure. I couldn't handle being looked into like that. So it wasn't well into my adult years. Did I shouldn't? Did that relationship change, yeah, just change and grow and evolve and morph into him, kind of becoming my teacher, which simultaneously taught me that kind of a classic cliche, when the student is ready, sort of thing. You know, I was practicing yoga and meditation and revisiting Eastern spirituality on my own. And one day, I woke up and grabbed a friend and said, you know, let's go visit rd. I haven't seen him in almost five years since he moved to Maui, and it'd be a really good idea, like I could sit at the house, let's go. And I went. And there was something about that visit, and that was November of 2008 where it just he appeared differently to me. He just appeared differently. And I also connected with Neem Karoli Baba for the first time, intellectually known who he was. But there was something just about that visit where, kind of the skies parted and the teachings appeared in a way that I could access in a way that felt right for me. Yeah,
Christine Mason 8:44
those the same year that I encountered NKb Oh in the in the Taos ashram, by accident, in
Zach Leary 8:50
2008 Okay, by how's the by accident thing work?
Christine Mason 8:54
Well, I was driving around and I saw these prayer flags, and I followed the prayer flags into a parking lot, and as an What is this place? And I parked and I got out, there was nobody there, and I walked around, I was like, this is really this feels really good here. And I walked into a room, and it was like the puja room was empty, black velvet drapes the big man. And I sat down on the floor, and the whole thing was like vibrating. And a woman came and sat behind me and started playing the Harmonia. Was the first time I'd sat in a room where someone was doing the Hanuman Chalisa, and I didn't know what it was at the time. And then as I walked out, I grabbed these postcards, and they had, you know, I was like plaid blanket
Zach Leary 9:34
man, and didn't know who he was. I just
Christine Mason 9:38
knew that there was something here for me. And then he started coming in my dreams. And it was, was a, yeah, by accident. And then I met, you know, Adam Bower and and I went to his house for the first time. There were like, wall sized posters of Maharaji everywhere. This is a very weird, you know, like your future calling you to it. So, anyway, so, so that's amazing. I. I want to just as a teaching point, or as a one point, go back to this idea that sometimes Everything we need is in the field near us, and we're not open to it. We can't see it, but it's like been kind of waiting. You talked about it as when the student is ready, the teacher appears. But that seems to be true all in in many other dimensions, that that our world is like kind of waiting for us to focus our attention on the things that have always been there, and that that feels very faith filled and comforting to me.
Zach Leary 10:31
I couldn't agree more. And I think that also ties very well into psychedelics as well. I think psychedelics are accelerated illuminators of what's already inside of you that's been dormant all along, but our waking state of consciousness or self limiting belief systems or trauma, whatever it is for every individual, masks that from its own uncovering and psychedelics kind of just chip away and shine the light on it. Then what you do with it after that. It's kind of up to you. But yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely true. I think that is the path of dharma. It's illuminating that path that is right in front of you that you just cannot see or are afraid to walk on, could be a little bit of both. I suppose you know, for me, I think it was personally, I think it was more afraid to walk on, fear of judgment, fear of, you know, insecurity, fear of, you know, all of these things and but I couldn't agree more. I think that's our field of vision, that that kind of plane of existence with all of these, you know, beautiful gifts and lights and teachings are are readily available to us. But you know the human predicament is, it's tricky. Christine, the human predicament is a tough thing to navigate.
Christine Mason 11:45
I'm getting this vision of you as a small child, like growing up in this space where looking out from your own little embodiment, and looking out at all of this activity and busyness and wildness and like the sort of, there's a safety shell that's that's missing. And like this unsteadiness in that energy, that beautiful, that as you grow, you know you're going through all of these, as you're calling insecurities. And, I mean, you're a good, looking, brilliant man who comes from like a family that has access to everything, and yet there's this small part that's like, a little unsteady. So it's like, what does it take to create an environment of safety and self knowing and self awareness for a young being to grow into the fullness of their capacity? Anyway, that's probably a much bigger question than the book, which we're going to talk
Zach Leary 12:34
about. But no, it's a beautiful vision, and it's and it's entirely accurate as well. You know, only child, I was definitely just dropped in deep end at the pool, which, you know, I think my parents were hoping I could swim. But that lack of stability, yeah, really just created sort of an uneasiness with it. I mean, like I said earlier, certainly there was a lot of fun to be had, but there was also a tearing fine like it, with all of those people around, especially when I was a little kid, I felt so lonely, you know, because I'm just this little kid and, you know, they're dropping me in this deep end of Very sophisticated, evolutionary forward thinking that it's very un childlike, you know. So I kind of feel like my childhood wasn't as childlike as maybe I would have liked it to be, but I think I'm making up for it now. Tom Robbins once said it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Christine Mason 13:34
Yeah, that's how we're goofing around today, climbing in all the colorful rocks and Death Valley and like bouncing around like children, it's so great to have that play energy back. Okay, let's talk about how. So you did digital marketing, and you tried to be a straight guy, and you found your way back. How, what is the story about, beginning to write this book and get your extraordinary mind.
Zach Leary 13:57
So about six years ago, I was going through a dark night of the soul, very, very difficult. And as I was coming out of it, I had a pretty solid amount of experience and presence in the psychedelic space. I was hosting the maps podcast, which was going very well, was a pretty active facilitator. Felt like I was really kind of starting to find my voice, and then the starting end of the soul kind of really humbled me and chipped away at my spiritual ego and false sense of, you know, pride and things like that. And, yeah, when I came back, I just was so grateful to have these kind of, this air of clarity. You know, I've been wanting to write a book for a long time, not necessarily this book, but I had been wanting to write a book. And then it kind of occurred to me that, because of so many facilitation sessions that I'd done, combined with my years of observation, that I had a lot of data, just kind of looked at it and. Very simple way. It's like, oh, I have a lot of data to share with the world, and this ever expanding psychedelic world was also simultaneously happening at the same time. So that was the initial kind of inspiration, was to share the data and to share the personality mixed in with the data. As far as the writing the book goes. I mean, I wrote this book proposal in about four days, three to four days, and it was a complete download. Just channeled it, and then I ended up selling it about less than two weeks later. So went kind of from idea to selling it in like two weeks, and which was great, but it was also kind of this false flag. It kind of tricked me into thinking, Oh, this is easy. I can do this. I'm going to do this forever, come up with these ideas and get a book contract. And it was not like that at all. Writing the actual book was ended up being really beautiful experience, but at the beginning, it was very terrifying experience, mainly because it's like, you know, as we get older, and I'm sure we can all relate with this. You know, learning to do something new, it's hard. It's hard to do something new when you're, you know, over 40 or whatever. And I had no methodology or structure way to write the book, but I found it took about three years, and I think it's about 25% autobiographical, 25% prescriptive, and then the rest is just commentary on the movement, all kind of with an underlying theme of, you know, I do consciously feel that I'm a legacy holder, and the best way to express that is Not just to tell a dozen stories, far out stories that everyone wants to hear, but I thought the most authentic way to express the legacy element is to show how it is they inspired me, rather than just telling kind of the low hanging fruit National Enquirer stories. You know, I thought that was a much better gift to the reader. Was to show how Timothy and Ram Das did affect my heart, my perspective and my point of view on this culture. And that's how the book was born.
Christine Mason 17:10
So with the title, it's interesting that you chose mind, since the integration of sort of mind, body, spirit, soul, the oneness is kind of behind a lot of what gets revealed in both with the substances and with the work with Ram death. But how are you defining an extraordinary mind?
Zach Leary 17:29
I can laugh at this now, not that the book has been out a couple months. The publisher actually really liked that title more than I did. Lessons of a first book, exactly. I kind of acquiesced to it. I had some others. I thought that they thought were a little too esoteric, and I just kind of made peace with that, one of the few compromises I did make on the book. But that was one of them.
Christine Mason 17:50
Well, it is Invitational, I have to say. Like, it's like, when you say your extraordinary mind, it's like, oh, do I have an extraordinary mind? And it's, it's, it's interesting. Like, if it had been called the extraordinary mind, it'd be so abstract, but it's actually like you. It's an invitation to you, the reader, to come and explore what's inside of you. So I can see why it would
Zach Leary 18:10
be Thank you. Yeah, and I agree very much with that. And I do think you know the psychedelic experience. I mean, yes, it does illuminate the mind, body, spirit, heart, and all of these various parts of the human experience, but how it does illuminate, you know, the various inner workings of our minds, operational functions, looking that on a spiritual level or on a scientific level, like on a scientific level, if you look At the fMRI, the famous, now legendary, Robin Carhart, Harris, fMRI scans of the brain on LSD and psilocybin, you see this amazing part of our body that is illuminated both hemispheres and prefrontal cortex, and just illuminated in a way that our waking state of consciousness just cannot achieve. For some of us, I think having our mind just kind of turned on in that way is a revelatory experience, right?
Christine Mason 19:05
One of the things I've been is like the amount of love that's available when fear centers get shut down is one of my favorite transformations with molecules
Zach Leary 19:17
absolutely and I'd add to that, at least in my speaking for myself. I mean, not everyone, but that amount of love that is available that really is my most authentic expression of being, you know, I am. I've been afraid to love, you know? I mean Neem, Karoli, Baba and Ram Dass certainly helped me with that. But I can be afraid to show love, you know, and and having that awakened and shown to me that it is a safe place to hang out in, it's a beautiful experience
Christine Mason 19:51
that touches me so deeply. You know, there's a feeling I have that when there's a place for my love to land, I am most myself also. Yeah, and sometimes it's not about letting it land on another person or on the world, and it's conceptual beauty, but to let it land on the self. Also, this is very beautiful. I mean, it ties back into the loneliness also, like, why would you risk loving if it's not being mirrored back to you in the way that is authentic, I guess. But let's talk about, let's talk about that a little bit like, let's dive into that. I mean, we could talk about love and like, is it safe to love another person? What is the role of psychedelics and relation in the relational field? Bea did this beautiful talk on psychedelics in partnership at psychedelic science last week. Just such a gorgeous invitation to how opening that field in a love, romantic, erotic relationship, what it can do for people. Where would you like to go? Do you want to go into, like, erotic love relationships, or into more conceptual Love of self or the world?
Zach Leary 20:50
It's kind of like a choose your own adventure thing. I mean, I think all of these paths are kind of equally valid. I mean, when this framework for exploring love, kind of it gets introduced to me, I tend to kind of land on the thing that Krishna Das says a lot is that we do not give love or receive love. We are love that is who we are. And I love kind of landing on that because this and then it kind of helps me reconcile this idea of, oh, if you give love and you're and you're expecting to have it mirrored back to you in a way that you're think you deserve, or feel you deserve, or something. I mean, that's fine. That's a natural human tendency to do that, but that's also kind of caught up with expectations and results and things like that. So I kind of tend to kind of just land in the in the former, yeah, I mean this. I mean the erotic part of it too, kind of our inner sacred feminine or masculine, and how we are awakened to our sacred sensuality that is also within us, and how psychedelics can help illuminate kind of insecurities or kind of touch and go, ness around body confidence and body shame, body exploration and body comfort, and creating a self, sacred and safe place to express desire, to express our inner, primal or sacred desires, and really being in touch with that, and feeling kind of the universe's safety and the divine mother's safety, and giving us that that blank of like, Hey, this is a good place to go, not just for short term, momentary dopamine sense pleasure, but because it is an expression of self, Right, something like
Christine Mason 22:41
that, moving from the when you articulated as the fear of love, fear of loving, to a sense of being that love. And then does, does the fear for you dissipate? I
Zach Leary 22:51
think so definitely. And it removes me from the trap of thinking like, Oh, I'm not getting enough love back. And poor me the transaction piece, the transactional piece. Yeah, there you go. Right. Yeah. Lovely.
Christine Mason 23:03
You mentioned getting in touch with the divine feminine. How does that fit into the worldview that you formed, like this idea that there's a feminine and a masculine energy in you, and also, how does it show with you as a man in the world, like in relationship with women, or in relationship with the feminine principle and culture, has that shifted with your personal growth much?
Zach Leary 23:27
Yeah, I think absolutely. And the seeds for that for me really, I think at least intellectually and then maybe spiritually, were introduced to me through Eastern concepts, especially in, you know, the bhakti yoga tantric traditions and, you know, and all forms of Godhead in Hinduism are always a masculine and feminine, you know, together they make the whole Krishna, Rada Shiva, Shakti and Sita Ram and stuff like that. And they're always as two halves of this dance, you know, and without the other, and then it's just kind of like this personality that performs, you know, divine actions and stuff like that. But then when it is met with the other, it fuses together. You create a holistic concept of eternal bliss, knowledge, God, so and I think that also, is also the same with us, right? You know, we all have X and Y chromosomes within us, you know. And you know our societies as well, like there's kind of this. As a man, I can only speak for myself, and kind of just assume what the female experience is like. But as a man, you know, we are fed with a lot of toxic masculinity, and this is what a man is supposed to be. And that isn't a very feminine concept, you know? And when you kind of chip away at that and feel kind of the pull to explore more feminine sides, as the sacred masculine, yeah, I mean, it's such a as a man. Growing up in America, I think it's kind of a revolutionary experience. And to drop away those, those preconceived, you know, little bits of programming that are so hard to shake. And as a woman, you know, I can, especially as a young woman today, seeing what you know, how femininity is expressed in social media and so on and so forth like that, must be a very, very difficult thing.
Christine Mason 25:22
Yeah, you see some cultures in the world where women are rejecting it all together. They're just dressing in baggy clothes, cutting their hair short, living with other women, just rejecting it completely and and because it's so demanding, and so, as you said, so performative. So here's something that I've noticed, both in like people who've had spontaneous enlightenment experiences through meditation or grace, and people who had big openings in psychedelics, and they touched the whole the beautiful vastness, but then they don't have the skill sets to integrate that into daily living and and so you can have these very enlightened people on the one Dimension, not able to function in normal human relationships like accountability or show up on time or on their behavior. I think those are all three of the same thing, actually. So the theme of this year's conference was integration and and that that also feels like, yeah, maybe that's the right word. But there is something about like pulling those threads of unity and openness and insight through those experiences into the body, into daily life and the separate soul. And I wonder how that integration worldview is landing in you, or what you have to say about that.
Zach Leary 26:37
A lot to say about it, and I can't overstate its importance. And, you know, the first bit of what you said, you know, I've, maybe this is a little bit of a rant or kind of a judgment fueled venting, but, you know, I'm, I consider myself someone who's been a part of the greater, transformational New Age psychology community my entire life, you know. And I think, you know, when you do get too attached to the outcomes of the method, then, yeah, you sort of become sort of a champion of spiritual bypassing, you know, because you do have to live in the material world. That is just part of the deal, you know, unless you are it's a time, another time and place, where you can be a Neem Karoli Baba, or something like that, and that is just something else entirely. But I don't think the modern world really fosters that. And so, yeah, you have to exist in the modern world and take accountability and and have a certain relationship with the game of finances, the game of relationship, the game of accountability, the game of right action, right thought, right speech, all of these things, you know. And whereas we kind of shift to the psychedelic lens a little bit, well, I'll tell you this, when I was researching my book, you know, I went back to a lot of the original, kind of iconic 60s literature on psychedelics, including stuff by my dad. And one thing that I noticed that was conspicuously absent from all of these books was integration. Not a single mention of it. They were so hyper focused on the experiential part of it as kind of this juxtaposition of 1940s and 50s psychological exploration there really wasn't much on integration, almost nothing. And as the Pandora's box just exploded in the 60s, you know that very short time period from 63 to 69 just that massive explosion of psychedelics, I think so many people got turned on and got into the trap of chasing peak experience, but then didn't know what what to do with it, or how to place it. Certainly, there are some outliers who, you know, affected our culture for the better, especially in music. You know, it's psychedelics influence music and the arts and civil rights and climate consciousness and things like that sexual revolution. But for the most part, I think the millions of people who turned on ended up kind of at the end of a cliff come okay. Now what I've come down now, what? Fast forward? You know, 50 years later, as this new psychedelic movement has been born again, I am so thrilled that integration is such an in common dialog, and looking at the experience as a three tiered process, preparation, the journey, and integration afterwards. And to me, in the simplest terms, it's about turning insight into sustainable action. You know, what good are having? You know spiritual awakenings or deep inner healing, if you cannot pragmatically apply it to your life. I mean, they're good they become good ideas. They become kind of cool little cosmic toys to play with. But if you can't hold it and do something with it, then I think it's just the method just becomes more air than ground.
Christine Mason 29:56
Yeah, if you were designing a container or a flow. That you think from all of your experiences would be the ideal situation for people. How it work those three stages that are there more specific elements you would want to include timeframes. What makes a good integration?
Zach Leary 30:13
What makes a good integration is helping the Voyager get in touch with a methodology of sustainable practice that works for them. What might be good integration for you? Christine might be different than me, or vice versa, you know? And that's why I get very, very touchy when I see these become a certified integration coach, you know? Those things bother me immensely, because I'm like, Well, what is that? And you're saying, well, that certification, that is that just one way to do it. Like, I don't think that there is any one methodology. I think it's about helping the Voyager get in touch with various tools and containers and skills and that work for them. And that can be, you know, it's a very long list, journaling, yoga, Tanja, breath work, flow tanks, ifs traditional therapy, CBT, whatever it is, it really doesn't matter, just as long as you're doing it. The timeframe, though, is important. That's I'm glad you mentioned that, because that is important. Science definitely backs that concept up these days too. You know, our critical period, our kind of window of neuroplasticity that allows for change, isn't really that long, you know, after the psychedelic experience. I mean, it's, it can be days, but, you know, taking action immediately afterwards, and so you're really driving home those downloads in the days and weeks following. The journey is absolutely essential, like it's this is kind of an extreme example, but the worst thing that you could do is have this profound, heroic, exploratory journey on a Sunday and go back to your desk on a Monday
Christine Mason 31:57
morning, because it shuts down. Yeah, shuts down
Zach Leary 32:01
your default good. Call it the default mode network. But whatever your default way of being a human is going to just kick in and you're just going to go right back to it. You know, it shuts down. You have to allow some expansiveness in your time as well, to allow these things to to flourish. What
Christine Mason 32:19
is that window? That neuroplasticity window, how many days would you recommend right after? Well,
Zach Leary 32:23
it's different for every compound. You know, I think mushrooms is anywhere from, you know, two to five days, maybe a little bit longer, if you kind of continue with some microdosing afterwards. I think ketamine, they're saying is 48 to 72 hours. MDMA is two to five days. So it's different for every compound
Christine Mason 32:47
less than a week. So if you, if you said you're conscious expulsion of a of a topic, or I have a question, I'm bringing into a medicine space, I would also create a cushion after that, to digest it, to look at it, to turn the lens on, on, what that might mean for my life.
Zach Leary 33:05
That's right. And I'm also the belief, and this is just kind of my opinion, but I've seen it kind of also actualized in that kind of a firm believer. And if that are people using psychedelics to grow, evolve, heal, connect, whatever that it's almost essential that you have some form of a contemplative practice that's traditional meditation for pastana, Kirtan, whatever it is, but some form of a contour contemplative practice that can activate non ordinary states of consciousness. And that, to me, if you are doing those after your journey. It does make the window a little bit longer and more sustained and malleable. And really tapping into those is, to me, it's essential. I kind of sometimes don't I stray away from the word essential, because if somebody doesn't have a practice, I don't want to say, no, well, then you can't do psychedelics. You know, it's not that black and white, but it's highly recommended, you know, and
Christine Mason 34:03
if you don't have a practice, you could substitute it with easily learned practices like walks woods in silence with your hands behind your back. You know, you can have an Insta meditation by doing something like that. I think this willingness to the I keep coming back to the willingness to look inside and be fearless about looking at your own self and and that that in integration is the biggest thing is like, what does this mean? I had a friend who just did their first Ayahuasca journey, and they came that with a very clear vision that the medicine was saying surrender, just surrender, and that that was such a big part of the overall journey. And they spent a full week after work going, what is, how does surrender show up in my work, in my relational life, in my trust of God, like everything, in every dimension, like since that was the dominant message with assistance from somebody who was a. A certified coach kind of thing, but that's such a beautiful way to carry it through. And yes, now a couple of months later, every time an opportunity comes up and they freeze in the face of life, the message is like, what would it mean to surrender into this moment? And it's just complete transformation in them.
Zach Leary 35:18
Did that person have a hard time surrendering during the journey. Or did it go smoothly?
Christine Mason 35:24
Initially Yes, initially Yes, but then with that message, they like to relax the body, but it turned out to be a meta message for life.
Zach Leary 35:33
Yeah. I mean, that is a very common response to it, because I think especially for people who are new to psychedelics, you know, the idea of surrender is kind of a over intellectualized, kind of cliche thing that you don't really understand. And then when you're in the psychedelic space and you feel your entire mind, body, soul, and even, in a way, even kind of your generation of thoughts being taken over by this other thing, whatever that thing is, however you want to name it, I think surrendering is it's almost like a muscle, right? It's almost like a spiritual muscle that you learn to develop, and then you start to get comfortable with it, and stop trying to steer the ship and just flow downstream, you know, but at first, yeah, so that's a hard thing to do.
Christine Mason 36:23
Well, you you have, I love that you have meditation and devotion in complement to psychedelics, and that you have all of these modalities that are in the book about that address, sort of the evolution of the identity through multiple modalities, that the fixed self isn't a thing, and that you're really inviting people to take a molecule and a practice perspective on finding their extraordinary mind. Thank
Zach Leary 36:50
you. Well, said that's a beautiful way to say it, and you said it better than I did. The goal of spiritual practice, of which I'm going to lump in psychedelics with that, is to go on this path of incremental upgrades. You know, it's in it is incremental. I mean, now and then, sure, we have a journey that can be, you know, kind of a life, earth shattering experience, and may lead to a complete 180 but most of the time they're just incremental, little evolutionary upgrades, sort of like an operating system, right system, 10.5 10 point 5.2 and so on and so forth. I think that's what spiritual practice does to us as well. Can
Christine Mason 37:31
we zoom out and take it from the individual now to the collective consciousness, a little bit like what is happening from a timing perspective? Why now? And do you think that the human mind is evolving, or are we just sort of recycling the same patterns with better technology? What is happening from a collective consciousness perspective? It feels like all of the fractals of human violence on all of that stuff are still with us, this thing that's that's like changing people's minds on mass.
Zach Leary 38:00
Yeah, it's a complicated question and a complicated answer. I mean, and I get very kind of caught in this polarization of it, because on one hand, I do see more people turning on Waking up than ever before. On the other hand, I mean, look at the state of American politics, and the rise of hate, a rise of xenophobia, and, you know, the rise of ignorance, it's a funny thing to see them exist on a parallel path all at the same time. I choose to be an optimist in that there are some times throughout history where things do need to melt down to get in order to get better. God, I just hope that's what's happening right now, you know, and that we will eventually turn to a more awakened state and stop kind of defaulting to these same ideological plagues that have been holding us down for millennia, which are just seeing being rehashed and repeated over again, right? Well,
Christine Mason 39:02
if you're listening to this, we're happened to be recording it right after the initiation of the US war with Iran 2025 and so this kind of dates the recording. But it's also like another example of the things you don't address will come back to bite you in the butt, individually or collectively, like I was living when I was a teenager. I was living in Iran during the first revolution. And you know when, when we had been meddling since the early 50s in that part of the world? And then it's like we created a situation that then had a response that then got buried, and then lives in our relational field globally. And now we're involved in something that seems like it's kind of coming out of nowhere, but it's not coming out of nowhere. It's sitting on top of all of these unresolved conflicts. Same thing with racism. It's sitting on top of all of this unresolved racism in the culture or genocide. You know, it's it. And so what you don't deal with in your own self, you notice, comes back. To bite you throughout your lifetime, and it's the same in culture. And I feel like maybe it is all coming up for viewing.
Zach Leary 40:07
I hope so. And you said it beautifully. I think the kind of the trick is, like, one of my biggest problems with Trumpism is that it's given people permission for that base level, kind of, whatever you want to label it, racism, hatred, ignorance, to be to come to the surface and to be told, Oh, it's okay to be like that. It's fine, go for it. I am, you know, you can be too. I'm the president. You can be that way too. And I just would say that, I hope, and maybe we are seeing it slowly, is that mirror is starting to kind of turn and being like, and it does will confront the individual with like, Oh, I do have to make deal with that as an individual first. Yeah,
Christine Mason 40:51
like that. I don't want to be like those ice ages and grandpa to the ground. Part of me that still echoes with that are like, Is that who I really want to be in the world? Is that who we are as a country? No,
Zach Leary 41:02
no, absolutely not. And I think a dark kind of exploration into, you know, the soul will reveal that, I think in many, many people be like, yeah, goodness. I really don't want to be like that. And from a historical perspective, I think it supports that, you know, that never ends well.
Christine Mason 41:20
But I love that you're saying that, like I've been confronting my own racism, like I didn't know that I had was racist. I didn't know that I had some of these beliefs, and because it's up in the culture in such obvious way, like I'm looking at, how do I hold immigration? How do I treat immigrant groups? Do I even think of them as part of America? Or do I also have like these, these, like almost subconscious structures in my head and, and I hate to say it, but I do,
Zach Leary 41:47
but I do think they are subconscious structures. I've, I would say that for sure, because I do think, like, you know, you're a forward state of being Christine, and it's, you know, you're a pretty evolved person and pretty compassionate, loving and intellectually, you'll see the playing field and be like, Oh, fuck, that's wrong. I don't want to be like that. But these subconscious little nuggets, or building blocks, cinder blocks, that have been just formed on top of each other through various conditioning methods, those that they're inevitable, you know, they're just inevitable. And it takes all the bravery to admit that and to say, oh, I need to, I have work to do as well. Yeah,
Christine Mason 42:24
in the context of, like, opening the mind and being able to see them and like, what could be happening in the collective in this moment is like, would I have looked at the labors, the structural labor questions of America had up in this mass movement to deportation, which was, which is showing the dependency and the integration of our lives with imported labor, like it really wasn't a thing that I thought about. And now it's up in the culture, and I can see how when I walk through the world, there are entire categories of people that I just don't witness. Can you feel that like, like, you can walk in the world and be like, oh, there's like, all of these people who are doing these service jobs that I actually didn't see today, and now they're there as and I feel like a tenderness and a breaking in myself, a breaking open to that, and like how I have been part of the problem. And I feel that is, by the way, quite a gift of psychedelics. I don't feel guilty about it. I don't I just feel like, oh shit, there that there's that thing. And if I wanted to change in the world, it's not somebody out there, it's actually
Zach Leary 43:26
me. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I remember I had this experience. It was a while ago now. I mean, a good 20 years ago or so, I was driving on the i Five, you know, over the grapevine and through the San Joaquin Valley to San Francisco, but we were kind of at a leisurely place pace, in no rush, and we decided just to veer off and kind of explore a couple little towns. And it's such a simple thing, but I noticed all the migrant farm workers who were picking the fruit, and they were 100% not 90% 100% immigrants, you know, lining up to pick our fruit. And to me, that had just been sort of like this foreign, kind of abstract concept to me, but to actually see it in practice just kind of gave me a little insight into, oh, wow, really understanding how, you know, the sausage is made in the American ideological framework is like, you know, you really have to be very, very clear on that.
Christine Mason 44:30
Yeah, so let's say, I would say what I'm loving about this part of the conversation is it comes back to, like, anytime you want to say someone outside of you is the problem, the other is the problem you want to blame somebody, you want to isolate, that story of separation is, I would say, almost always wrong. I won't say, I won't say 100% wrong, because we hate absolutes, almost always Yes, always wrong. And that if you're not, if your heart is not in a place of love, kindness, curiosity, to understanding, you're probably not aligned with. Your highest and deepest soul. So anytime that judgment and othering creeps in politically, also, there's probably some investigation to be done
Zach Leary 45:09
absolutely. And you know, it's this kind of classic Ramdas rd teachings as well, like these, these little threads that form the illusion of separation. And how those little threads can be you may just kind of view them as just, oh, they're just little incidental threads. But bind it together, they form a pretty strong fabric of the illusion of separation.
Christine Mason 45:31
Okay, my friend, I want to hear a few things on what else you're working on. You've got the still doing the maps podcast. In your podcast,
Zach Leary 45:37
I am the maps podcast. Evolve. Is the same podcast, just different name maps. When they were going through some legal things with the FDA challenge, kind of long, anyway, long story, they just thought my podcast was a little bit of liability for the maps message. So I just changed the name same podcast, and all the maps episodes are still on it, but it's now called the psychedelics Then and Now podcast, and do a lot of facilitation work in Austin, and mostly in Austin, I do travel quite a bit, though, and I teach an online course, which starts again on July 2. This is cohort number seven, the Psychedelic Studies, intensive eight week online course, and I'm still on the book tour.
Christine Mason 46:18
Austin's such a great city, so many advanced seekers there wonderful so people who want to take the course. I think if you're interested in this subject, it's coming up right away here. Well, congratulations Zach on writing this book, on doing all of the personal work to navigate you through that tumultuous beginning and finding your solid center, what your role is in the psychedelic movement, and thank you from me personally for blending it so deeply with the broader spiritual insights and awakening to our oneness that come from the non medicated world, and for your deep grace and your love. Thank
Zach Leary 46:56
you, Christine, it's so good to see you, and I love what so many of these things that you've manifested how Larry are shaping up and birthing in the world, and thank you for having
Christine Mason 47:06
me. Thank you so much to Zach. Here are some of my takeaways from the show, legacy and identity are not the same thing. Growing up in the shadow of a visionary parent can create confusion around identity. When Zach shared how he eventually found his own path, not by copying or rebelling, but by awakening to his own authentic Dharma, I could really relate to that. The second is that addiction isn't freedom, but cognitive liberty is despite being raised in a culture that revered expanded states, the fact that Zach found himself trapped in substance abuse was ironic when he talked about the difference between addiction and intentional exploration and how in recovery, he found true sovereignty that also really resonated, particularly from what I know with the people who have been addicted. I think for me, the third point, but probably it should have been the number one point, is integration. Is everything I write about that also on the substack for this week, on you know how to integrate and what happens when we have cathartic experiences, but we don't ground them in behavior. So integration is everything. What you do with the Insight is where the real transformation lives. I loved how, in this episode, he offered a grounded perspective on how integration can turn the kind of mystical downloads you get on psychedelics or anything else into embodied, everyday wisdom. I also love that he pointed out that love is not a transactional thing. It's who we are that we don't give or get love. We are love, whether through the mirror of psychedelics, devotion or conscious relationship. He reminds us that returning to love is both our nature and our healing. And then apropos for this show the inner feminine is not optional. We spend a lot of time here talking about the evolution of the masculine through the rediscovery of the sacred feminine within and also the masculine in the inside of the feminine body, the genetic part of us that brings us into balance, and his reflections on bhakti and Tantra and letting go of conditioning invite us all to a more balanced, awakened embodiment for all genders. So that's right, on mission. Thank you for being a listener. If you liked this episode, please text the link to someone that might enjoy it. Pick up Zach's book your extraordinary mind. Visit rosewoman.com our main sponsor of the rose woman podcast, and find beautiful body care and ritual products for your whole life. And do me a favor if you can, and you're liking the show, we have only five star reviews on Apple podcasts, and everyone's voice matters. People really like to see the comments on episodes, and the more it's reviewed, the more likely it is that people can hear these great guests Spotify also, or any platform that you listen in on. All right, remember who you are with or without molecules you are wired to jump back and forth between unity consciousness and the sense of the great, beautiful oneness and the magic of being in your own body and. Seeing the world from your own perspective, all love all the time you.
