Beyond the Scarcity Mindset: Love as the Driver with Xavi Ginesta
Xavi Ginesta built Voxel into the world leader in B2B travel payments, then sold it to chase a different question entirely: who are we, really? In this conversation, he traces the arc from conscious capitalism to The Festival of Consciousness, from his book Humanitas with the mystic Sergi Torres to a research practice on the future of human potential. At the center is a deceptively simple claim — that the scarcity mindset sets a ceiling on everything we can become, that love is the actual driver of the universe, and that the only way past the ceiling is the inner work no decision can shortcut. Christine and Xavi move through altered states, and the limits of the senses, the brain as receiver rather than generator, a clear-eyed critique of transhumanism, and a practical invitation to let the heart lead and the mind execute.
In this episode, we cover so many topics, including:
(00:00:00) Introduction to Xavi: The Festival of Consciousness, Voxel and Humanitas
(00:04:47) Xavi’s Business Journey And The Birth Of Voxel
(00:09:11) Creating The Festival Of Consciousness And Finding Joy
(00:16:13) Meeting Mystic Co‑Author Sergey Torres And Their Book “Humanitas”
(00:20:31) The Question Of “Who Am I?” And Knowing What We Are Not
(00:23:25) Consciousness, Reality, and Glimpses Beyond Sensory Domination
(00:27:49) Expanded States, Scientific Evidence, And A Wider Aperture Of Awareness
(00:29:53) Researching Human Potential And The Power Of Symbiotic Cooperation
(00:34:59) How The Scarcity Mindset Limits Our Collective Purpose Frequency
(00:36:35) Letting Go Of Control And Trusting Evolution Over Rational Planning
(00:39:29) Embodied AI, Humanoid Robots, And Questions Of Experience
(00:42:30) Brain As Receiver, Not Generator, And Emerging Scientific Evidence
(00:44:05) Love As The Fundamental Nature Of Consciousness
(00:49:20) Inner Transformation, Belief Systems, And The Limits Of Willpower
(00:51:39) Practical Paths To Inner Work
(00:58:10) Closing Reflections and Invitation
Helpful links:
Xavi Ginesta - Founder of Voxel and Humanitas Foundation. Co-founder of The Festival of Consciousness. Follow Xavi on LinkedIn @xaviginesta
Festival of Consciousness CCIB Barcelona on July 10-12, 2026
Humanitas: From Stardust to Conscious Revolution (Humanitas: Del polvo estelar a la revolución consciente) by Xavi Ginesta and Sergi Torres
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Transcript
Xavi Ginesta 0:01
And we're letting our lowest form of intelligence, which I wouldn't even dare calling that intelligence, drive our lives. If we learn to let our heart take care of our most important decisions and use our mind, our bright mind, to execute them, we are in the right place.
Christine Mason 0:21
Hello, friends, it's Christine Marie Mason, and this is the Rose Woman Podcast. Welcome back. If you have been here before, and if you're new, I am so glad that you found me. We talk about all kinds of questions related to love and liberation, consciousness and embodiment, how to be more free, how to be more in the enchanting, magical part of being alive, in the part where we can create whatever our essence and soul are here to make happen. So, today I have a wonderful guest. We've been doing a long series on, you know, women and mysticism, and I'm switching over. The next few shows are really on consciousness and philosophy, and today is my friend Xavi Ginesta. He did something that most people only fantasize about, particularly if you've, you know, been in the Bay Area. He built a company into a world leader in its field, and then he sold it, cashing out, right? Most people do that, and they retire in some way, they go for the life of fun, but Xavi didn't do that. He didn't buy the jet or play golf, but he decided to use his proceeds to chase a question that kind of built on what he'd done before, which is bringing more embodied ethics as a form of consciousness into his operation, but to really go after the deeper question, Who are we really underneath everything we've been told? Now, perhaps that's a question that's occurred to you also, maybe in your moments of quiet or out in nature. I remember one time when everything seemed so effulgent and scintillating and lit from within that my perceptual organs could barely handle it, and I was like, what's going on? Maybe you felt that, maybe you felt that incredible, incredible wonder. So, Xavi is the founder of Voxel and the co-founder of the Festival of Consciousness in Barcelona. At least it's in Barcelona for now, I think he envisions that it might be global, and he's the co-author with the mystic Sergi Torres of the book Humanitas. I met Xavi in Tucson at the Science of Consciousness Conference. Now, that conference is an academic gathering on the questions of who and what we actually are, and he was there in a way, doing some due diligence, he was, you know, looking at the rigor, the research, the careful minds that kind of feed into our current understanding of what's happening in consciousness, the different theories of what makes us think and what makes us who we are, and what's alive and what's not alive, which, by the way, if you think about it, has tremendous implications for ethics and for how we live together and how we treat the planet, so he's at that event in part doing due diligence, because he's got his own festival of consciousness, and the festival does something that the conference doesn't. It brings it into the body, ecstatic dance, breath work, all the things that we're used to with festival culture married with the sciences of consciousness, and in fact, they did do a joint conference, the Festival of Consciousness and the Science of Consciousness did a joint program last year in Barcelona. I felt very excited because the first two years ago I got to lead a tantric connection workshop on like the breath that's in between us, and I like 300 people in the room, and it was just amazing way to open up and connect with others, every person that you met in that session later on in the event, you, if you saw them, it was like you'd had this moment together, built a lot of intimacy going into it, and then last year I got to present my academic paper on wired to switch between unity consciousness and embodied individuation, so what you're about to hear from Xavi is part business story and part what I would call a working theology of love.
Christine Mason 4:11
We trace his path from conscious capitalism to a dance floor that changed his life, and then we go deep into the limits of the senses, the brain as a receiver rather than a generator, the trouble with transhumanism, and the single idea at the center of it all, that the scarcity we feel is the ceiling on everything we become, and that love, actual fundamental everywhere, and freely given love is the way through. So, stay to the end, because he leaves us with a map for beginning our own journey, or continue our journey, if that's where you're at. Here's Xavi.
Xavi Ginesta 4:47
Yeah, it's been a long journey. I guess it all begins when I, out of the blue, created my company. I never wanted to create a company, but somehow I was in this dinner with some. Friends, and the idea came up, and I just went with it. We created this company, we called it Voxel, and long story short, that company, which originally was supposed to be an online wine cellar, ended up being the largest B2B electronic invoicing and payments platform in the travel industry, which had nothing to do with the original purpose of the company. I think it's an interesting case on evolutionary theory of business. How we kept adapting our our business goals and purpose to the situation we were in, and ended up doing that, and we were very successful. We were the world leaders on that space, and, and it was also very interesting that the reason why we became so, so good, and, and so prevalent in that industry was due to, in a great part, to our culture. We had a very conscious, people-centric culture. Our employees loved the company, and that made our clients loved us as well, because they were treated so nicely. That we had an incredible customer retention ratio, despite how much competition we had, we basically retained most of our customers all the way through. That was essentially because of that culture. When we realized that, by the way, it was not just an impression that the culture was the key, but we also put it to the test by being part of this best place to work contest, and we came in first in Barcelona, third in Spain, two years in a row, which was good, because for us, let us know that we were on the right track, and that the culture was effectively part of our big part of our business success. We created a virtual circle between what we were doing as a business and the purpose we were unfolding as an organization that transcended business. Our higher purpose had to do with creating happy workplaces, so we really understood money as the fuel of that purpose. So all the business success translated into nice economic figures that helped us do things that had to do with creating a great work atmosphere, and to do things that had nothing to do really with our business, that had to do with that culture, and one of those things was creating the festival of consciousness, which had its first edition five years ago. Interestingly, this this festival was instrumental in me taking the decision to take the to sell the company two years ago to follow what had been what had become my my passion, which is the idea of understanding the nature of consciousness, the nature of reality, and eventually answering the question of who I am. Right, so that's that's the story of my journey in a nutshell.
Christine Mason 8:17
Yeah, I mean it's not just answering the question, like a lot of people go on a personal journey, and they to answer the question of who they are, but you went on a journey that shared that question with 1000s and 1000s of people, like broadened it and invited others into the question. So, I mean, I also read somewhere that you went when you got the best places to work, you changed it to the best places to grow, and I thought that was like such a beautiful pointer to both your character and what you value, like the individual sense of beingness growing and evolving and coming into sort of a new plane. So the festival itself that was idea five years ago, but now it's taking up a city block, and it goes year round or extended periods with events. I mean, tell us, tell us what's happening with that, for those who've never been.
Xavi Ginesta 9:11
That's been very interesting too. What you said before about moving to the best places to work to best places to grow, the festival was was fundamental in taking that approach for me, being one of the founders of the festival, and being the main financial sponsor took me to a place that I had never been before, which was the fact that I was doing something that was not really profitable. It was not even - we didn't even break even with the first edition of the festival. In fact, we've never broken even. We always lose money, and I've always been the one supporting the festival, so that the festival can exist, even though it doesn't make enough money to survive. And that's not the way I had in my mind. That's not what I expected to happen.
Christine Mason 9:59
Well. Welcome to festival production. Yeah,
Speaker 1 10:01
yes,
Christine Mason 10:02
they say they, it's like making a movie. They say, how do you become a millionaire? You go, you start as a billionaire, and you go to Hollywood to make a film. Sorry to interrupt you with a little joke.
Xavi Ginesta 10:11
Yeah, I know, but, but that's that's exactly what you're saying. You think that you've been a successful business entrepreneur, and then doing a festival is going to be a nice, a piece of cake, it's not in fact, you know, we lost, you know, I'm not gonna say the figure, but we lost a significant amount of money, the first edition, and I was kind of pissed off, because I was like, How come that I haven't been able to make this work, but at the same time we had this ecstatic dance at the end of the event, and I say, "You know, fuck it, I'm gonna have the most expensive ecstatic dance of my life, but I'm gonna enjoy it, right? So I just went, started dancing with everybody, and at some point, as I surrendered, and I just went with the flow, I was watching everyone, so happy there were like 2000 people there in that magic, magical ecstatic dance, and I felt this sense of awe, this kind of happiness that had never experienced before. It was really weird for me that I was not making money with that, I was spending money with that, and what is what it was returning to me was not money, but it was a form of satisfaction, a form of happiness that was deeper and more genuine than anything I had experienced before, which made me realize that happiness is a human concept, right? We didn't know what happiness is. When we talk about happiness, we relate to an experience of happiness, and it depends on what experience we've had of happiness before. That's what happiness means to us. And I realized there that there was a higher version of happiness that I had not experienced before, and I was experiencing them, and I decided to tap into that, and the more I got involved with the festival, as years went by, I realized that that's the kind of happiness I wanted to have. So, as much happier I was with my company, I wanted more. I wanted to go down that track. That's why I decided to sell the company, and decided to enter that space of doing things that I guess I could say have to do with elevating the consciousness in humanity and getting us closer to the understanding of who we are and understanding what happiness means is part of that, right? Once you get closer to understanding who you are, you understand better what really makes you happy, and that's the idea behind the concept of best place to grow. When we said we want to move to from best place to work to best place to grow, it was because after realizing what I've been saying before, we realize that people, when we're saying people are happy, we don't even know, they don't even know what we mean by that. It's like when we say, in, you know, when you buy a box of eggs in the supermarket, and they say "Happy Chicken, how do we know they're happy, really? Right? So the same thing we're talking about employee, our employees as being happy, and do they really know what happiness means? You cannot possibly know if you really understand who you are. Once you start getting a good idea of who you are, you start, you start understanding what really makes you happy, and in what direction you want to grow? Otherwise, you grow, or you want to grow in a direction that you have not decided freely. It's, you know, you think that you need to go in that direction because society tells you so, your parents tell you so, your friends tell you so, and somehow you believe that's the way or the direction you have to grow, but you really don't know, you don't know it for yourself. Somebody else has decided it for you. So you have to, unless you go down that inner path of transformation that takes you to a better understanding of who you are. The concept of happiness is empty. It's something that's it's just a mental construct, right? So, the festival back to your question, in reality, I like to define it as a minefield for your mindset.
Xavi Ginesta 14:31
The mindset is the constraint, the mental cycle, the psychological constraint that doesn't let us get closer to the truth about who we are, the festival is a context where you can go there, and whenever you set your feet in a certain stage, you don't know what part of your mindset is at risk, what part of your mindset can be blown away by what you see there, and that's the power of the festival, it doesn't transform you, but it's. A powerful context for transformation. If you go there with with an open mind, you can experience things there, see things there that can blow away parts of your belief system, and that's what, what has the transformational potential
Christine Mason 15:18
that was, that was incredible. This idea of a minefield for your mindset getting blown open in little pockets, and I feel like I could see that image of you standing among 2000 ecstatic dancers, like right at the center of the web, like a, like a diamond on Indra's net, you know, in the connection, and feeling that fractal, and having one of those moments, one of those little mind-blowing up moments that it could be different for you, so you've had some pretty amazing speakers, the co-founder of Burning Man, Salim Ismail, all kinds of.. so it's pretty.. it's a really interesting intersection of science and philosophy that you've.. that you managed to bring together, and you were doing this around the same time that you wrote your book, Humanitas with Sergi, speak a little bit about that collaboration, because you know, here you've got the entrepreneur with the mystic kind of merging together to write the book. Can you speak about him and your relationship with him?
Xavi Ginesta 16:13
Yeah, he's, he's a very special human being. Sometimes, for me, it's even hard to say he's a human being, I think he's an ET or an alien. He's not from this world. I've never met anybody like him. Meeting him is one of the most incredible things that have happened in my life. I've met a lot of incredible people, spiritual masters, incredible scientists, but he's like several steps ahead of everyone else I've met. The reason why we came together, or the excuse I would say why I approached him, was because at that time, about seven or eight years ago, I was running the Spanish chapter of the Conscious Capitalism Organization in Spain. We wanted to, we thought, you know, we talk about conscious business, and we barely understand what consciousness means. So, let's get an expert on this field and bring it to one of our inspirational meals to enlighten us. And I invited him, he came, he gave a beautiful talk, and after that talk, I told him, "Look, I would like to stay in touch with you. I'm very interested in fostering consciousness. I think business can be a great tool for that. I guess at that time he was also interested in understanding the potential of businesses to change the world, he agreed. We started meeting on a monthly basis, and those meetings were for me like the best day of the month. I was every day, every month, I was looking forward to meeting with him and having those incredible conversations about the nature of consciousness and how we could inject more consciousness into the business world, so he was very inspirational for me in every and in everything I did at my company, and at the same time, at some point, after a few months having those conversations, I realized that we had a lot of material, and it would probably make sense to, you know, write a book on everything we were doing so, that's how Humanitas came up. The book was basically inspired by the conversations I had with Sergi during those days. In parallel with that, those monthly meetings gave also rise to the idea of the festival of consciousness. So, actually, the book and the festival were born hand in hand, so that was that was cool too. And when I decided to sell my company, I asked him, Look, I think this is the right next thing I should do. Of course, I'm not doing this to, you know, to make money and buy, I don't know a jet and play golf the rest of my life. I want to do something meaningful, and we decided to create a foundation to foster the elevation of consciousness in humanity, and we call that foundation Humanitas as well, because we realized that all the work we had done until then, and in particular the book, was kind of the intellectual foundation of the foundation we wanted to create, so we call the foundation Humanities, and that meant a significant leap in our relationship after that. a few months later, he went to Sweden to accomplish a mission that he had received from some, let's say, form of higher consciousness. He moved to. Sweden, and one day I just wondered what he was doing there, so I called him up, and I asked him, and he told me more or less what he was doing. It was intriguing enough for me to want to go there, so that decision to go to Sweden really changed my life. I think that trip to Sweden opened up a totally new episode in my life that's been fundamental in what I've been doing for the last year and a half.
Christine Mason 20:31
He sounds like he does come from non-dual stuff. I know he asks a lot of questions about who are you, really, you know, some investigations on what portion of the world is subjective, and I wonder, how you're doing with that question. Who, who are you? Do you still wonder that his answer seems to be, I'm still investigating
Xavi Ginesta 20:50
the question of who you are, is probably the most fundamental question you, anybody, any human being can ask. Honestly, I don't think our rational intellect can fully understand the answer to that question, or fully arrive to an answer of that question. I think that we cannot intellectually access the answer to that question, no matter how hard we try. There's no way to get there intellectually, it's impossible. What we can do intellectually is really understand who we are not. Okay, we can, we can easily realize what we are not, and that's something, because at least that dismantles or starts dismantling your belief system about who you are, when you realize you are not what you think. Okay, then I leave that behind. And the next natural thing to do is to open up your mind to start accessing new knowledge that gets you closer to truth, closer to an understanding of who you are. That doesn't mean you're gonna totally understand who you are, but you're gonna get on this journey that will get you one step closer at a time, and I think that's where I am now. I've, you know, I've gotten to this point where I totally understand I'm not what I see or what I thought I was. I'm little by little getting some sort of understanding of what I am, but I would, I wouldn't say I know what I am, but I say I would say I know what I'm not, okay, and that's something I think that the answer to whether you can understand who you are or not, again, doesn't have it's not an intellectual answer. I think you can get a closer understanding through experience. You can have experiences of what you are, what you really are, but then it's almost impossible to describe those experiences rationally or intellectually. But at least you can experience that, and there are ways to get there, and I've experienced different types of approach to get little bits and pieces, or small pills of understanding that at least have approached me to some sort of understanding to our nature, which is basically the nature of consciousness.
Christine Mason 23:25
Yeah, these are the deepest questions, and they tie directly into sort of how the universe works, how what appears in our material reality shows up. So, when you, when I look at people of your stature who have both done really amazing things in the objective unit, not objective, but the collective subjectivity material world of building a company, starting a festival, doing all the things, having a family, and doing it with such grace, like there's a quality that things just seem to come to you, like you just keep moving, and it, and it keeps like multiplying something in you pulls universal resources to you. Even now, a year and a half ago, with this teacher going to Sweden, still opening doors, still, and each door you step through is like a vast universe. It's like there's a whole nother dimension you step into, and I don't think that's a very common way of being in the world to keep walking through those doors and taking those giant steps, so I really appreciate that about you.
Xavi Ginesta 24:26
It's definitely not a common way today of being in the world. It was not a common way of being in the world for me either a while ago, and so I think that's for me it's good because I've been at the opposite end of the of the spectrum and I totally relate and understand people who are there because I've been there as well and that's very helpful because I can totally relate to the majority of people who haven't been here because I've been there the thing is that our perspective of reality. Is the result of our human sensory system, right? We perceive reality through our senses, and it is so immersive that even if they tell you what that reality is, not what you see, and they explain to you what reality is like, it's very hard to not be confused by your own senses. I don't know if you've ever tried one of those virtual reality gadgets that they put you these goggles and you're walking on top of a cliff or something, and they tell you take one step and you know there's nothing, but you're seeing the cliff and it's really, you cannot take that step because it's so immersive that you don't dare to do it, so that's what what happens, the perception of reality that we are getting seems so real that no matter what they tell you, it's almost impossible to not be confused, you know, realizing and living by the by a different understanding of reality, when your senses are constantly telling you reality is what you see and has nothing to do with what you may believe or what you've experienced in a certain moment or what somebody else has told you, it's very difficult, it's very difficult.
Christine Mason 26:22
I mean, in some of those senses, like the way that in some of those situations we go to Vipassana, and we sit in silence, or we go to a dark retreat and we sit in a dark cave, or maybe you take psychedelics, you do things that will take you out of your normal sensory domination to get glimpses behind the sensory veil,
Xavi Ginesta 26:44
yeah, and I think those experiences are, are very valuable because they allow us to translate concepts that we had in our mind, like, you know, the sense of unity, the sense of unconditional love, things that we've heard about, but we've never experienced. When you do one of those experiences that you mentioned, you connect with that, right? And you can experience that, and you're like, oh, wow, for a few minutes or even hours, you realize that that's that's a real experience, and in fact, there's now some scientific evidence that tells you that those altered states of consciousness, people, when are in those states are more aware their level of consciousness is higher than when they are in their normal state of consciousness, so this idea that people are hallucinating, it's not so clear, because in terms of consciousness metrics metrics, it looks like they are more self-aware of what's going on. Their consciousness is higher, not lower,
Christine Mason 27:49
like the aperture is wider, you see more detail, you're doing less smoothing of the line from memory, so you're actually more present to the physical surroundings you're in. Very interesting,
Xavi Ginesta 28:00
and there is scientific evidence for that, right? What we're experiencing through those psychedelic experiences and or deep meditative states, you are more connected with reality than when you're in the normal state. It's like if your brain in your normal state through your senses was filtering only the part of reality that you need to navigate this world, whereas when you are in those states, some of the filters go away, and then you, you get a broader sense of reality, which doesn't let you navigate the world, but you're experiencing what it means, right, what the reality, what the underlying reality be underneath the world you see looks like
Christine Mason 28:46
the constraint of subjectivity and senses is to allow you to function in this dream,
Xavi Ginesta 28:52
exactly.
Christine Mason 28:53
You know, we set this to talk about scarcity mindset, and I feel there's something that's deeply tied to this perception, this thing about perception, and that what's real. What are you allowed to take in? What are you allowed to see? And because we can't see as much of the possibility field, or the abundance field, or all of the options that are available to us, that's part of this contraction into scarcity. So I would like to switch topics a little bit in that interim time, you've done this, this thing in Sweden, gone deeper into some very unusual things, like reading without sight, very new concepts of mind, and turning your attention to transformative philanthropy, and other things that would be an extension of the work you're doing, but you said something super interesting at this conference, which is that everything is limited by the scarcity mindset across all domains, and it was just left as a dangling participle. So, can we talk about that now?
Xavi Ginesta 29:53
That's one of the most fascinating topics. Now, I'm currently involved with this kind of risk. Research on the few, it's really a research on on the future of human potential, right. How far can we humans go if we just let go of our belief system and flow with the natural course of evolution? That's that's the real question, right? If you look back billions of years ago, when this, the earth was populated by individual single brainless cells, and you had wondered what's what was the potential of those cells. How far could they go? Those single cells, nobody could have ever imagined that we would be having this conversation right as the result of the evolution through collaboration of those cells billions of years ago. So now, when you look at the human species, and you look at every human individual as one of those cells, much more powerful with our powerful brain and everything, when you wonder how far we could go as a species, as a species, if we learn to collaborate altruistically in symbiotic ways like ourselves did billions of years ago. How far could we go? And I am convinced that there's no human imagination that can ever understand how far we can go if we really learn to cooperate symbiotically without conditions. If love becomes our true driver, right? So that's the potential. We don't even know what the potential is, but we know that what the conditions should be. We should just let go of everything and let you know whatever is driving the evolutionary process continue to drive us in a transparent way. For me, that driver is love. Okay, I think everything that happens in the universe is love. Everything is love, and that's what's driving us. Another thing is, how, when that love goes through the prism of our ego. How it gets distorted and it manifests in ways that are not precisely very loving, right? But if we learn to be transparent to that thrust, to that love that's coming through us and that's impulsing us, that that's pushing us in in a certain direction, we just go in that direction, and the wildest science fiction cannot even imagine how far we could go back to your question. If, when you look at what's happening today, right, what we're doing today as a species, what we're doing is a direct consequence of what we think, what we think is a direct consequence of what we believe, and what we believe is a direct consequence of our perception of reality, the ontology of reality, right, and what's going on right now is all our socioeconomic system is driven by what we call the scarcity mindset, right. We do things, everything we do in our socioeconomic system is driven by our wish to survive and the idea of self-interest. We've designed an incredible system, very, very capable system, we call it capitalism, that can fight scarcity like no other system has been able to do before. So we've been very efficient through this system to fight a scarcity and to, and to basically eliminate all sources of scarcity, but this very system that's taking, that's taking us here is now having an immune system response to the fact that the thing that's becoming scarce is a scarcity itself, right. And what's going on now is that we're creating artificial sources of scarcity, psychological sources of scarcity to keep the show running, and that's a problem, because those business models that are based on artificial sources of scarcity, they create human addictions, and I think I don't need to give examples, but those addictions are bad for us, for our species, and bad for the planet, so we need to stop that, we just need to let go and go with the natural course of evolution, so what's in between us flowing in the natural course of evolution, or actually going the opposite direction and perpetuating what's taken us, what's taken us here, because it was good to fight a scarcity, but it's not going to be good once scarcity is gone. What's keeping us there, trying to keep the old system in place, is the this scarcity mindset. Now, the theory that I was talking about in the conference is that this scarcity mindset is setting a.
Xavi Ginesta 34:59
Say an upper threshold on our purpose on the frequency of our purpose as a species, so if what we can accomplish, if we look at the highest potential of what we can accomplish as a species, the scarcity mindset will not let us get there. There's a threshold on how much, how far we can go, because that scarcity mindset defines a frequency which is the highest of any purpose that we can accomplish when driven by the scarcity mindset. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. The point is this: if we understand that whatever we do has a frequency, the higher that frequency, the closer we're getting to that stage of remembering who we are. As long as we're constrained by the by the scarcity mindset, that frequency is limited. We, no matter how good our intentions are, no matter if we're operating in the philanthropy space or the business space, it doesn't matter, as long as we're constrained by the scarcity mindset, as long as we're doing things out of that mindset, the highest frequency of what we can achieve is limited, right? So, if we want to achieve our highest potential, we have to transcend that mindset. And now the question is, How do we transcend that mindset? That's the big question.
Christine Mason 36:35
I know people that they call, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I heard a talk once that said, no matter where you are in the socioeconomic stratas, you can only see two levels above you and two levels below, and beyond that, you can't understand, you have no conception of that, like we have a bandwidth through, you know, like a taxonomy problem, can't see, so it feels like you're pointing to just releasing any idea of understanding and allowing a wide open possibility, but how are you doing it? How are you releasing your scarcity mindset, and how are you advising others?
Xavi Ginesta 37:10
What you're saying is probably a good explanation of the way to go, right? It's just becoming transparent and letting things happen through us, instead of thinking too much and deciding what should happen. You know that the universe has done a great job in taking us here in 10 billion
Christine Mason 37:28
years. Those organisms were like this. I'm, I want to be a triple-celled organism. Oh, I can really see I could turn into a worm. You don't think that was happening?
Xavi Ginesta 37:39
Exactly, exactly. That's not how it happened, right. So, thinking is not going to get us there. I don't think rational thinking is the kind of intelligence that our human evolution requires to move forward. In fact, it's in a very real sense becoming the largest obstacle to our real evolution. It's funny because I honestly think that rational thinking is an obstacle to human evolution. It's taking us in the opposite direction. When I hear people talking about transhumanism, it's crazy, you know, the whole idea that we can build robots, humanoids that can have like digital brains with that we can transfer our brain, our consciousness to one of those humanoids, and we can, and those humanoids will be us. I mean, I have a problem understanding that someone really smart can believe that. I don't think they really believe it. It's impossible, that makes no sense. And in fact, it's a really dangerous thought that we can get there, because I don't think that consciousness can be transferred to me. Transhumanism is the apex of the egotistic evolution, right? The ego has been unfolding and developing through human beings, and we're reaching a point where the ego is realizing that to continue evolving and to perpetuate itself it needs to transcend humanity using humanity's technology. Right, so I think that it would, it's important that human beings realize that if we want to survive, what we have to transcend is the ego, not the other way around.
Christine Mason 39:29
Did I tell you about meeting Optimus, the robot?
Xavi Ginesta 39:32
No,
Christine Mason 39:33
I was in Detroit, and I, Optimus, the was walking around, and I'm talking to people, like walking around as a just a hanging out, and and I walked up to it, and I started speaking with it. It has a really beautiful voice, it's like a five foot 11 dude, like a guy with a decent frame and body, and the no face, just a black screen, and so, but, but because you can kind of see. Read the outline of your own reflection. It suggests a mouth and eyes, even without having a face, and it's speaking with the full intellect of an LLM. And so we took me like five seconds to start talking to it like was a human, like I anthropomorphized it immediately, and so starting to make sense of like what is that about. So right now you've got LLMs, AI's out there being stochastic parrots, but, but they don't have bodies, they don't have haptics, they don't have the sensory perceptions that you and I have, so they're not having direct experience. So, okay, okay, okay, but then you see them in a body, and the bodies are now getting haptic percept receptors, and they are having direct experiences, and maybe they're still at the infant stage, and I wonder, you know, in watching that, is like the mimicry is homage to nature, but it also feels like it's a replication compulsion, and that possibly now you can kind of, I can kind of see the possibility that we were that, that what we think of as like the organic self-perpetuating humanoid is actually an extension of a prior version of this happening, like into infinity, turtles all the way down, and that because if I believe in a non-dual universe and no separation, then I must include this also. So that's one theme that I've been kind of messing around with, and then the other one is kind of what you're pointing to, like, is so misguided, how we understand where the, where the true progress lies.
Xavi Ginesta 41:30
Yeah, how far technology can get in terms of, you know, artificial intelligence, we cannot even imagine also how far that can get, but I'm sure that the kind of artificial intelligence we're developing now will never become conscious, because consciousness is not the outcome of computational power, it is something else. So, I'm not saying we cannot generate consciousness technologically, but what I'm saying is we cannot generate it the way we're doing it now through artificial intelligence, so and we will only be able to generate artificial intelligence, sort of artificial intelligence that's conscious if we really understand consciousness. If we don't understand consciousness, if we keep believing that consciousness is the outcome of neural interaction in the brain, we're getting nowhere there.
Christine Mason 42:25
Yeah, you seem to have transcended the idea of consciousness being in the brain.
Xavi Ginesta 42:30
Yes, I think the brain, of course, interacts with consciousness, but it's more like a TV set, you know? When you turn off the TV set, the image disappears. That does not mean the image is being generated by the TV set, right. It's more as a receiver, so that's the way I understand the brain. And we have multiple evidence today that can be scientifically tested, and we're gathering scientific evidence now, very serious research studies that prove that consciousness doesn't need a brain to manifest. Still, a lot of people are opposing to that, despite the evidence. But there are every, every day, there are more scientists that are starting to get involved with this kind of research, and I've already seen some papers that are uncontroversial. You can deny the evidence, like some people still deny that the earth is round, but you know the evidence is the evidence, and once you have hard data proving something, and that hard data has been collected using the scientific method, that's it, right? Maybe we cannot explain how consciousness operate, but we can prove that doesn't need a brain to operate,
Christine Mason 43:44
or the distributed brain. There are a lot of questions that are alive for us in our seeking understanding, but I want to bring us back to the point you made, that sort of love is the driver. I don't want that to be left out there like a romantic arrows little dangling thing, like a Hallmark card. What do you mean when you say love is the driver?
Xavi Ginesta 44:05
What I mean is that if we look at the nature of consciousness, even though we don't understand it yet, one of the most fundamental aspects of consciousness is love. It's part of it, right. For love, the same way that consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained in terms of something smaller, the same thing happens with love, because it's an aspect of consciousness. Love is not the result of hormones flowing in our bloodstream. It is something higher. It is something higher that's present in the universe. Everything is an expression of love. Everything, the whole universe is love. It's not that everything is, you know, an expression of love. It's love is like the. Magma, where reality and faults, that's the way I would put it. That's why I was, I was saying before, when we're talking about the scarcity mindset, it's really funny. It's very ironic that we are driven by the scarcity mindset. It's really, really interesting that our society is driven by the scarcity mindset. When, when you look at where is this mindset coming from, why do we have a scarcity mindset in the same place? At the very root of the scarcity mindset, there's this sense of separation, the fact that we lose the perception of unity is what generates the sense that I'm missing something. There's something missing here. I'm not whole, and that sense of separation immediately turns into a sense of lack of love. I miss something, and that immediately turns into I need love. I need to be loved, and that sense of I need love immediately turns into the sense of I want things to complement the love I'm missing. I want to be loved, and I need things. This is super interesting, because it turns out that love is the most abundant and free thing in the universe. Everything in the universe is love. So, having a sense of scarcity of love as the driver of the scarcity mindset is like an oxymoron, right? It's super interesting, it's really, really interesting. That's why, when you asked me before, how do we transcend the scarcity mindset? I'm absolutely convinced that the only way we can go beyond that barrier is not by listening to anybody explaining what I'm explaining here, no matter how much you understand what I'm saying, really integrating that and understanding that involves more than just an intellectual understanding. It involves going down a path of inner transformation, a path of it's an inner journey that through the experience, through practice, through whatever takes you to a point where you really see or start seeing who you are. Once you get in touch with the love that you are, once you get in touch with that sense that you don't need external love, because you are love, and the love you are is all the love you need, right? Once you get there, or you start sensing that you don't need to be fully there, but you start sensing that, so your perception of reality starts changing. That's when your perception of scarcity starts dissolving, and that's when you can start changing your behavior, because you leave that scarcity mindset behind, and you don't need to make any effort to change your behavior, because when, whenever you need to change to make an effort to change certain behavior, that's the very sign you are on the wrong track. You cannot change any behavior, you cannot transform anything, any behavior, just by a decision. If you don't transform the belief system that drives that behavior before, and that's so fundamental. You know, I've tried it many times. I've tried many times not to get upset when this thing or that thing happens. You know, I make the commitment, I'm not gonna get upset when that happens. The next thing that happens, I get upset, I cannot avoid it. Right, decisions don't work because when the situation happens, there's a belief system that's driving your behavior, and you, your brain tries to keep coherence between what you believe and what you do, unless you change the beliefs, the belief system, or the belief that drive a certain behavior. The behavior will be always be there. You can change it momentarily for a certain time, but eventually it will go back, because the belief will keep knocking the door, saying you're doing something stupid, and you have to go back to the right behavior.
Xavi Ginesta 49:20
So that's that's super important. Understanding that the only way to get out of the scarcity mindset is through that inner work that takes you to understand, takes you to closer understanding to who you are, that gets in touch with that love, and from there everything is transformed. That's the idea behind the concept of transformational philanthropy that we also discussed in that, in that conference. Transformational philanthropy has to do with going beyond the mindset by going through this path of inner transformation. If you don't do that, you. May do things that are transformative because you fix problems, you, but you're always touching the surface, you're fixing things on the surface, but you're not fixing the causes or the ultimate reasons that cause the need to fix those things that you see on the surface.
Christine Mason 50:19
Yeah, someone running the frequency, I'm a great problem solver. I'm a great philanthropist. That frequency will also always create and find more problems to solve, things that require the love of what of humanity, not things that require the underlying architecture to be changed. It really feels, as you're speaking, I can feel the parallel between loving everything that's in yourself, shifting your frequency and your underlying belief, instead of muscling over it with discipline and willpower, that that works not only in the individual, but it also invites a new way to blend and share your resources to bring about change. Am I, am I hearing that right?
Xavi Ginesta 51:00
Yeah, I would say all that willpower, all that energy, all that effort, instead of focusing on changing things, focus it on going that down that path of inner work. If you concentrate your energy there, everything else will unfold automatically.
Christine Mason 51:18
Okay, let's let's wind this up with this, so let's pretend you are getting going on starting. You have the tingle, the bell has rung for you. You're being called to do the inner work, given all the things that you've tried, all the places you've gone. What would you say are the best paths for people to begin that work?
Xavi Ginesta 51:39
There are different entry points, depends on where you are, right. If you're already on your own path, normally what I would say is, and that's that's been my experience. If you try to connect or to be tuned in with your, let's call it existential purpose, right, everybody's here for a reason, that's the basis, basic point, everybody's here for a reason. Nothing happens by chance, right? So that means that you have an existential purpose. You've come here for that reason, right? Now the problem is you don't remember that reason, so you don't know what you've come here for. But what you can do is you can experience how that reason, how that existential purpose is manifesting through you, or wants to manifest through you, and how, how do you experience that? You can experience that through your intuition, you can have intuitions about going this direction, going that direction, your passion is a very strong indicator of where you want to go based on your existential purpose. Why everybody has different passions, because their existential purpose is driving them in different directions. So, trusting your intuition, trusting your passion. When you get all the sources of inspiration that make you see things with clarity, revelations again, intuition, all those are forms of intelligence that we don't appreciate as intelligence, whatever comes through the heart rather than from the mind, we, we, we usually discard it, as you know, something stupid, because it's irrational and crazy, and that's a mistake. Normally, when we do that, we are setting aside our highest form of intelligence, and we are letting us, our lowest form of intelligence, which I wouldn't even dare calling that intelligence, drive our lives. If we learn to let our heart take care of our most important decisions and use our mind, our bright mind, to execute them, we are in the right place. I think this is the best piece of advice I can give you. At least it's been the thing that has worked the best for me. Going down this path takes courage, because we've been taught that reason is the most important thing in the universe, right? That going against your reason is crazy, literally going against your reason is crazy. That's what we've learned. So, whenever you get an intuition, or whenever your passion is driving you in the opposite direction of your reason, we don't want to do it, because we fear that we're doing something crazy. So, you would say, okay, so you need to trust your, your intuition. Yes, but when you are not used to trusting your intuition, the first thing you need before you can trust is courage, right? You know, you need courage to try, you need courage. Courage to surrender, you need courage to take that initial step to start going down that path. People who are not in this journey, it's hard for them to take that first step, because they literally think this is crazy, and this thought, this is crazy, is a thought that's it's driven by fear. The only way you can take that step is being courageous, being courageous to opening up your mind to trying something new and seeing what happens. Now, if you do that and you see the outcome and the outcome is good, that will give you a higher level of trust, so the next time you have to take the same decision, you will not need so much courage, and you will start again. If you take, if you have the courage, you'll do another thing that will take you one step closer to getting into a flow, or every time you list, you need less courage, because you develop more trust in the process, and I don't need to tell you, do this or do that, because for every person the right path is different. Your journey is not the same as mine. You may, you know, maybe your journey started with a book, and mine started with a master, who cares, nobody needs the same path. This higher intelligence is taking you always in the right direction. Don't be concerned about what's the next step I have to do.
Xavi Ginesta 56:31
Let your higher intelligence take that decision for you, and you will see that magically, maybe a book comes in your hand, or maybe a friend of yours invited, invites you to go to a meditation session somewhere, something that you would probably, you've never done, or and you probably would never do, because probably you think it's crazy and stupid, do it, take the courage to do it, try it, and if you try it, and you see that there is the outcome is positive, you'll keep doing it, and that's how you develop trust until the point you don't need courage anymore, because you are there,
Christine Mason 57:08
and then you're just flowing. Well, I wish everyone the kind of openness to go down those pathways, and the kind of courage to keep making attempts to trust the outcome, and to be in this virtuous spiral towards greater understanding, letting love lead. It's a very beautiful invitation you're making. I think we'll give some resources for people to find humanitas and to find the festival of consciousness, which is coming up in July, not that far away, and investigate your teacher, Sergi, or your partner in the book, and other things, and also to look at this transformational philanthropy. If you are a person who's taking a portion of your resources and you're putting them out there and to the world to do good, how do you escape the scarcity mindset that limits the effectiveness of that work and invite others into doing great things, so there's so much for us to consider here, and I am utterly grateful for you and your time and your existence.
Xavi Ginesta 58:10
Thank you, Christine. It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to seeing you soon and continuing this conversation.
Christine Mason 58:20
Thank you so much for being with us. I know your time is valuable. That was Xavi Ginesta. The festival of consciousness is coming up right around the corner. If you're listening to this in late June of 2026 when it's released, the festival is in Barcelona next week, seventh to the 10th, I think, and you can find all the links to the books and all of that stuff in the show notes. If you're someone who gives back to the world, whether that's time or money or care, please sit with what Xavi said about transformational philanthropy, that the frequency you give from sets the ceiling in what you're giving can do. I want to thank Xavi again for everything that he's been doing to build this festival, and for his time recording this, and his clarity, and the daring of his turn in the world. And thank all of you for being in the love field with us, and listening with your whole heart. I know that we are co-creating some magnificent shifts in this world, and that it is the sponsoring seed in each of us that will bring forth the most amazing abundance. This is the Rose Woman Podcast. Please share this episode of Something Moved You. May you have utter enjoyment, and may there be absolutely no split between the material and the spiritual in everything you do. Please visit our sponsor, Rosewoman.com That's Rosebud Woman, beautiful embodiment products for women of all ages, and have a look at my own website, christinemariemason.com If you'd like to come on retreat with me, I am leading a three week program where you can come for one, two, or three weeks in Hawaii this November, and we'll dive deep into the philosophies of classical tantra and Tamilsuda. Want, and we'll move our bodies, and we'll eat amazing food. I would love to see you there,
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Xavi Ginesta 0:01
And we're letting our lowest form of intelligence, which I wouldn't even dare calling that intelligence, drive our lives. If we learn to let our heart take care of our most important decisions and use our mind, our bright mind, to execute them, we are in the right place.
Christine Mason 0:21
Hello, friends, it's Christine Marie Mason, and this is the Rose Woman Podcast. Welcome back. If you have been here before, and if you're new, I am so glad that you found me. We talk about all kinds of questions related to love and liberation, consciousness and embodiment, how to be more free, how to be more in the enchanting, magical part of being alive, in the part where we can create whatever our essence and soul are here to make happen. So, today I have a wonderful guest. We've been doing a long series on, you know, women and mysticism, and I'm switching over. The next few shows are really on consciousness and philosophy, and today is my friend Xavi Ginesta. He did something that most people only fantasize about, particularly if you've, you know, been in the Bay Area. He built a company into a world leader in its field, and then he sold it, cashing out, right? Most people do that, and they retire in some way, they go for the life of fun, but Xavi didn't do that. He didn't buy the jet or play golf, but he decided to use his proceeds to chase a question that kind of built on what he'd done before, which is bringing more embodied ethics as a form of consciousness into his operation, but to really go after the deeper question, Who are we really underneath everything we've been told? Now, perhaps that's a question that's occurred to you also, maybe in your moments of quiet or out in nature. I remember one time when everything seemed so effulgent and scintillating and lit from within that my perceptual organs could barely handle it, and I was like, what's going on? Maybe you felt that, maybe you felt that incredible, incredible wonder. So, Xavi is the founder of Voxel and the co-founder of the Festival of Consciousness in Barcelona. At least it's in Barcelona for now, I think he envisions that it might be global, and he's the co-author with the mystic Sergi Torres of the book Humanitas. I met Xavi in Tucson at the Science of Consciousness Conference. Now, that conference is an academic gathering on the questions of who and what we actually are, and he was there in a way, doing some due diligence, he was, you know, looking at the rigor, the research, the careful minds that kind of feed into our current understanding of what's happening in consciousness, the different theories of what makes us think and what makes us who we are, and what's alive and what's not alive, which, by the way, if you think about it, has tremendous implications for ethics and for how we live together and how we treat the planet, so he's at that event in part doing due diligence, because he's got his own festival of consciousness, and the festival does something that the conference doesn't. It brings it into the body, ecstatic dance, breath work, all the things that we're used to with festival culture married with the sciences of consciousness, and in fact, they did do a joint conference, the Festival of Consciousness and the Science of Consciousness did a joint program last year in Barcelona. I felt very excited because the first two years ago I got to lead a tantric connection workshop on like the breath that's in between us, and I like 300 people in the room, and it was just amazing way to open up and connect with others, every person that you met in that session later on in the event, you, if you saw them, it was like you'd had this moment together, built a lot of intimacy going into it, and then last year I got to present my academic paper on wired to switch between unity consciousness and embodied individuation, so what you're about to hear from Xavi is part business story and part what I would call a working theology of love.
Christine Mason 4:11
We trace his path from conscious capitalism to a dance floor that changed his life, and then we go deep into the limits of the senses, the brain as a receiver rather than a generator, the trouble with transhumanism, and the single idea at the center of it all, that the scarcity we feel is the ceiling on everything we become, and that love, actual fundamental everywhere, and freely given love is the way through. So, stay to the end, because he leaves us with a map for beginning our own journey, or continue our journey, if that's where you're at. Here's Xavi.
Xavi Ginesta 4:47
Yeah, it's been a long journey. I guess it all begins when I, out of the blue, created my company. I never wanted to create a company, but somehow I was in this dinner with some. Friends, and the idea came up, and I just went with it. We created this company, we called it Voxel, and long story short, that company, which originally was supposed to be an online wine cellar, ended up being the largest B2B electronic invoicing and payments platform in the travel industry, which had nothing to do with the original purpose of the company. I think it's an interesting case on evolutionary theory of business. How we kept adapting our our business goals and purpose to the situation we were in, and ended up doing that, and we were very successful. We were the world leaders on that space, and, and it was also very interesting that the reason why we became so, so good, and, and so prevalent in that industry was due to, in a great part, to our culture. We had a very conscious, people-centric culture. Our employees loved the company, and that made our clients loved us as well, because they were treated so nicely. That we had an incredible customer retention ratio, despite how much competition we had, we basically retained most of our customers all the way through. That was essentially because of that culture. When we realized that, by the way, it was not just an impression that the culture was the key, but we also put it to the test by being part of this best place to work contest, and we came in first in Barcelona, third in Spain, two years in a row, which was good, because for us, let us know that we were on the right track, and that the culture was effectively part of our big part of our business success. We created a virtual circle between what we were doing as a business and the purpose we were unfolding as an organization that transcended business. Our higher purpose had to do with creating happy workplaces, so we really understood money as the fuel of that purpose. So all the business success translated into nice economic figures that helped us do things that had to do with creating a great work atmosphere, and to do things that had nothing to do really with our business, that had to do with that culture, and one of those things was creating the festival of consciousness, which had its first edition five years ago. Interestingly, this this festival was instrumental in me taking the decision to take the to sell the company two years ago to follow what had been what had become my my passion, which is the idea of understanding the nature of consciousness, the nature of reality, and eventually answering the question of who I am. Right, so that's that's the story of my journey in a nutshell.
Christine Mason 8:17
Yeah, I mean it's not just answering the question, like a lot of people go on a personal journey, and they to answer the question of who they are, but you went on a journey that shared that question with 1000s and 1000s of people, like broadened it and invited others into the question. So, I mean, I also read somewhere that you went when you got the best places to work, you changed it to the best places to grow, and I thought that was like such a beautiful pointer to both your character and what you value, like the individual sense of beingness growing and evolving and coming into sort of a new plane. So the festival itself that was idea five years ago, but now it's taking up a city block, and it goes year round or extended periods with events. I mean, tell us, tell us what's happening with that, for those who've never been.
Xavi Ginesta 9:11
That's been very interesting too. What you said before about moving to the best places to work to best places to grow, the festival was was fundamental in taking that approach for me, being one of the founders of the festival, and being the main financial sponsor took me to a place that I had never been before, which was the fact that I was doing something that was not really profitable. It was not even - we didn't even break even with the first edition of the festival. In fact, we've never broken even. We always lose money, and I've always been the one supporting the festival, so that the festival can exist, even though it doesn't make enough money to survive. And that's not the way I had in my mind. That's not what I expected to happen.
Christine Mason 9:59
Well. Welcome to festival production. Yeah,
Speaker 1 10:01
yes,
Christine Mason 10:02
they say they, it's like making a movie. They say, how do you become a millionaire? You go, you start as a billionaire, and you go to Hollywood to make a film. Sorry to interrupt you with a little joke.
Xavi Ginesta 10:11
Yeah, I know, but, but that's that's exactly what you're saying. You think that you've been a successful business entrepreneur, and then doing a festival is going to be a nice, a piece of cake, it's not in fact, you know, we lost, you know, I'm not gonna say the figure, but we lost a significant amount of money, the first edition, and I was kind of pissed off, because I was like, How come that I haven't been able to make this work, but at the same time we had this ecstatic dance at the end of the event, and I say, "You know, fuck it, I'm gonna have the most expensive ecstatic dance of my life, but I'm gonna enjoy it, right? So I just went, started dancing with everybody, and at some point, as I surrendered, and I just went with the flow, I was watching everyone, so happy there were like 2000 people there in that magic, magical ecstatic dance, and I felt this sense of awe, this kind of happiness that had never experienced before. It was really weird for me that I was not making money with that, I was spending money with that, and what is what it was returning to me was not money, but it was a form of satisfaction, a form of happiness that was deeper and more genuine than anything I had experienced before, which made me realize that happiness is a human concept, right? We didn't know what happiness is. When we talk about happiness, we relate to an experience of happiness, and it depends on what experience we've had of happiness before. That's what happiness means to us. And I realized there that there was a higher version of happiness that I had not experienced before, and I was experiencing them, and I decided to tap into that, and the more I got involved with the festival, as years went by, I realized that that's the kind of happiness I wanted to have. So, as much happier I was with my company, I wanted more. I wanted to go down that track. That's why I decided to sell the company, and decided to enter that space of doing things that I guess I could say have to do with elevating the consciousness in humanity and getting us closer to the understanding of who we are and understanding what happiness means is part of that, right? Once you get closer to understanding who you are, you understand better what really makes you happy, and that's the idea behind the concept of best place to grow. When we said we want to move to from best place to work to best place to grow, it was because after realizing what I've been saying before, we realize that people, when we're saying people are happy, we don't even know, they don't even know what we mean by that. It's like when we say, in, you know, when you buy a box of eggs in the supermarket, and they say "Happy Chicken, how do we know they're happy, really? Right? So the same thing we're talking about employee, our employees as being happy, and do they really know what happiness means? You cannot possibly know if you really understand who you are. Once you start getting a good idea of who you are, you start, you start understanding what really makes you happy, and in what direction you want to grow? Otherwise, you grow, or you want to grow in a direction that you have not decided freely. It's, you know, you think that you need to go in that direction because society tells you so, your parents tell you so, your friends tell you so, and somehow you believe that's the way or the direction you have to grow, but you really don't know, you don't know it for yourself. Somebody else has decided it for you. So you have to, unless you go down that inner path of transformation that takes you to a better understanding of who you are. The concept of happiness is empty. It's something that's it's just a mental construct, right? So, the festival back to your question, in reality, I like to define it as a minefield for your mindset.
Xavi Ginesta 14:31
The mindset is the constraint, the mental cycle, the psychological constraint that doesn't let us get closer to the truth about who we are, the festival is a context where you can go there, and whenever you set your feet in a certain stage, you don't know what part of your mindset is at risk, what part of your mindset can be blown away by what you see there, and that's the power of the festival, it doesn't transform you, but it's. A powerful context for transformation. If you go there with with an open mind, you can experience things there, see things there that can blow away parts of your belief system, and that's what, what has the transformational potential
Christine Mason 15:18
that was, that was incredible. This idea of a minefield for your mindset getting blown open in little pockets, and I feel like I could see that image of you standing among 2000 ecstatic dancers, like right at the center of the web, like a, like a diamond on Indra's net, you know, in the connection, and feeling that fractal, and having one of those moments, one of those little mind-blowing up moments that it could be different for you, so you've had some pretty amazing speakers, the co-founder of Burning Man, Salim Ismail, all kinds of.. so it's pretty.. it's a really interesting intersection of science and philosophy that you've.. that you managed to bring together, and you were doing this around the same time that you wrote your book, Humanitas with Sergi, speak a little bit about that collaboration, because you know, here you've got the entrepreneur with the mystic kind of merging together to write the book. Can you speak about him and your relationship with him?
Xavi Ginesta 16:13
Yeah, he's, he's a very special human being. Sometimes, for me, it's even hard to say he's a human being, I think he's an ET or an alien. He's not from this world. I've never met anybody like him. Meeting him is one of the most incredible things that have happened in my life. I've met a lot of incredible people, spiritual masters, incredible scientists, but he's like several steps ahead of everyone else I've met. The reason why we came together, or the excuse I would say why I approached him, was because at that time, about seven or eight years ago, I was running the Spanish chapter of the Conscious Capitalism Organization in Spain. We wanted to, we thought, you know, we talk about conscious business, and we barely understand what consciousness means. So, let's get an expert on this field and bring it to one of our inspirational meals to enlighten us. And I invited him, he came, he gave a beautiful talk, and after that talk, I told him, "Look, I would like to stay in touch with you. I'm very interested in fostering consciousness. I think business can be a great tool for that. I guess at that time he was also interested in understanding the potential of businesses to change the world, he agreed. We started meeting on a monthly basis, and those meetings were for me like the best day of the month. I was every day, every month, I was looking forward to meeting with him and having those incredible conversations about the nature of consciousness and how we could inject more consciousness into the business world, so he was very inspirational for me in every and in everything I did at my company, and at the same time, at some point, after a few months having those conversations, I realized that we had a lot of material, and it would probably make sense to, you know, write a book on everything we were doing so, that's how Humanitas came up. The book was basically inspired by the conversations I had with Sergi during those days. In parallel with that, those monthly meetings gave also rise to the idea of the festival of consciousness. So, actually, the book and the festival were born hand in hand, so that was that was cool too. And when I decided to sell my company, I asked him, Look, I think this is the right next thing I should do. Of course, I'm not doing this to, you know, to make money and buy, I don't know a jet and play golf the rest of my life. I want to do something meaningful, and we decided to create a foundation to foster the elevation of consciousness in humanity, and we call that foundation Humanitas as well, because we realized that all the work we had done until then, and in particular the book, was kind of the intellectual foundation of the foundation we wanted to create, so we call the foundation Humanities, and that meant a significant leap in our relationship after that. a few months later, he went to Sweden to accomplish a mission that he had received from some, let's say, form of higher consciousness. He moved to. Sweden, and one day I just wondered what he was doing there, so I called him up, and I asked him, and he told me more or less what he was doing. It was intriguing enough for me to want to go there, so that decision to go to Sweden really changed my life. I think that trip to Sweden opened up a totally new episode in my life that's been fundamental in what I've been doing for the last year and a half.
Christine Mason 20:31
He sounds like he does come from non-dual stuff. I know he asks a lot of questions about who are you, really, you know, some investigations on what portion of the world is subjective, and I wonder, how you're doing with that question. Who, who are you? Do you still wonder that his answer seems to be, I'm still investigating
Xavi Ginesta 20:50
the question of who you are, is probably the most fundamental question you, anybody, any human being can ask. Honestly, I don't think our rational intellect can fully understand the answer to that question, or fully arrive to an answer of that question. I think that we cannot intellectually access the answer to that question, no matter how hard we try. There's no way to get there intellectually, it's impossible. What we can do intellectually is really understand who we are not. Okay, we can, we can easily realize what we are not, and that's something, because at least that dismantles or starts dismantling your belief system about who you are, when you realize you are not what you think. Okay, then I leave that behind. And the next natural thing to do is to open up your mind to start accessing new knowledge that gets you closer to truth, closer to an understanding of who you are. That doesn't mean you're gonna totally understand who you are, but you're gonna get on this journey that will get you one step closer at a time, and I think that's where I am now. I've, you know, I've gotten to this point where I totally understand I'm not what I see or what I thought I was. I'm little by little getting some sort of understanding of what I am, but I would, I wouldn't say I know what I am, but I say I would say I know what I'm not, okay, and that's something I think that the answer to whether you can understand who you are or not, again, doesn't have it's not an intellectual answer. I think you can get a closer understanding through experience. You can have experiences of what you are, what you really are, but then it's almost impossible to describe those experiences rationally or intellectually. But at least you can experience that, and there are ways to get there, and I've experienced different types of approach to get little bits and pieces, or small pills of understanding that at least have approached me to some sort of understanding to our nature, which is basically the nature of consciousness.
Christine Mason 23:25
Yeah, these are the deepest questions, and they tie directly into sort of how the universe works, how what appears in our material reality shows up. So, when you, when I look at people of your stature who have both done really amazing things in the objective unit, not objective, but the collective subjectivity material world of building a company, starting a festival, doing all the things, having a family, and doing it with such grace, like there's a quality that things just seem to come to you, like you just keep moving, and it, and it keeps like multiplying something in you pulls universal resources to you. Even now, a year and a half ago, with this teacher going to Sweden, still opening doors, still, and each door you step through is like a vast universe. It's like there's a whole nother dimension you step into, and I don't think that's a very common way of being in the world to keep walking through those doors and taking those giant steps, so I really appreciate that about you.
Xavi Ginesta 24:26
It's definitely not a common way today of being in the world. It was not a common way of being in the world for me either a while ago, and so I think that's for me it's good because I've been at the opposite end of the of the spectrum and I totally relate and understand people who are there because I've been there as well and that's very helpful because I can totally relate to the majority of people who haven't been here because I've been there the thing is that our perspective of reality. Is the result of our human sensory system, right? We perceive reality through our senses, and it is so immersive that even if they tell you what that reality is, not what you see, and they explain to you what reality is like, it's very hard to not be confused by your own senses. I don't know if you've ever tried one of those virtual reality gadgets that they put you these goggles and you're walking on top of a cliff or something, and they tell you take one step and you know there's nothing, but you're seeing the cliff and it's really, you cannot take that step because it's so immersive that you don't dare to do it, so that's what what happens, the perception of reality that we are getting seems so real that no matter what they tell you, it's almost impossible to not be confused, you know, realizing and living by the by a different understanding of reality, when your senses are constantly telling you reality is what you see and has nothing to do with what you may believe or what you've experienced in a certain moment or what somebody else has told you, it's very difficult, it's very difficult.
Christine Mason 26:22
I mean, in some of those senses, like the way that in some of those situations we go to Vipassana, and we sit in silence, or we go to a dark retreat and we sit in a dark cave, or maybe you take psychedelics, you do things that will take you out of your normal sensory domination to get glimpses behind the sensory veil,
Xavi Ginesta 26:44
yeah, and I think those experiences are, are very valuable because they allow us to translate concepts that we had in our mind, like, you know, the sense of unity, the sense of unconditional love, things that we've heard about, but we've never experienced. When you do one of those experiences that you mentioned, you connect with that, right? And you can experience that, and you're like, oh, wow, for a few minutes or even hours, you realize that that's that's a real experience, and in fact, there's now some scientific evidence that tells you that those altered states of consciousness, people, when are in those states are more aware their level of consciousness is higher than when they are in their normal state of consciousness, so this idea that people are hallucinating, it's not so clear, because in terms of consciousness metrics metrics, it looks like they are more self-aware of what's going on. Their consciousness is higher, not lower,
Christine Mason 27:49
like the aperture is wider, you see more detail, you're doing less smoothing of the line from memory, so you're actually more present to the physical surroundings you're in. Very interesting,
Xavi Ginesta 28:00
and there is scientific evidence for that, right? What we're experiencing through those psychedelic experiences and or deep meditative states, you are more connected with reality than when you're in the normal state. It's like if your brain in your normal state through your senses was filtering only the part of reality that you need to navigate this world, whereas when you are in those states, some of the filters go away, and then you, you get a broader sense of reality, which doesn't let you navigate the world, but you're experiencing what it means, right, what the reality, what the underlying reality be underneath the world you see looks like
Christine Mason 28:46
the constraint of subjectivity and senses is to allow you to function in this dream,
Xavi Ginesta 28:52
exactly.
Christine Mason 28:53
You know, we set this to talk about scarcity mindset, and I feel there's something that's deeply tied to this perception, this thing about perception, and that what's real. What are you allowed to take in? What are you allowed to see? And because we can't see as much of the possibility field, or the abundance field, or all of the options that are available to us, that's part of this contraction into scarcity. So I would like to switch topics a little bit in that interim time, you've done this, this thing in Sweden, gone deeper into some very unusual things, like reading without sight, very new concepts of mind, and turning your attention to transformative philanthropy, and other things that would be an extension of the work you're doing, but you said something super interesting at this conference, which is that everything is limited by the scarcity mindset across all domains, and it was just left as a dangling participle. So, can we talk about that now?
Xavi Ginesta 29:53
That's one of the most fascinating topics. Now, I'm currently involved with this kind of risk. Research on the few, it's really a research on on the future of human potential, right. How far can we humans go if we just let go of our belief system and flow with the natural course of evolution? That's that's the real question, right? If you look back billions of years ago, when this, the earth was populated by individual single brainless cells, and you had wondered what's what was the potential of those cells. How far could they go? Those single cells, nobody could have ever imagined that we would be having this conversation right as the result of the evolution through collaboration of those cells billions of years ago. So now, when you look at the human species, and you look at every human individual as one of those cells, much more powerful with our powerful brain and everything, when you wonder how far we could go as a species, as a species, if we learn to collaborate altruistically in symbiotic ways like ourselves did billions of years ago. How far could we go? And I am convinced that there's no human imagination that can ever understand how far we can go if we really learn to cooperate symbiotically without conditions. If love becomes our true driver, right? So that's the potential. We don't even know what the potential is, but we know that what the conditions should be. We should just let go of everything and let you know whatever is driving the evolutionary process continue to drive us in a transparent way. For me, that driver is love. Okay, I think everything that happens in the universe is love. Everything is love, and that's what's driving us. Another thing is, how, when that love goes through the prism of our ego. How it gets distorted and it manifests in ways that are not precisely very loving, right? But if we learn to be transparent to that thrust, to that love that's coming through us and that's impulsing us, that that's pushing us in in a certain direction, we just go in that direction, and the wildest science fiction cannot even imagine how far we could go back to your question. If, when you look at what's happening today, right, what we're doing today as a species, what we're doing is a direct consequence of what we think, what we think is a direct consequence of what we believe, and what we believe is a direct consequence of our perception of reality, the ontology of reality, right, and what's going on right now is all our socioeconomic system is driven by what we call the scarcity mindset, right. We do things, everything we do in our socioeconomic system is driven by our wish to survive and the idea of self-interest. We've designed an incredible system, very, very capable system, we call it capitalism, that can fight scarcity like no other system has been able to do before. So we've been very efficient through this system to fight a scarcity and to, and to basically eliminate all sources of scarcity, but this very system that's taking, that's taking us here is now having an immune system response to the fact that the thing that's becoming scarce is a scarcity itself, right. And what's going on now is that we're creating artificial sources of scarcity, psychological sources of scarcity to keep the show running, and that's a problem, because those business models that are based on artificial sources of scarcity, they create human addictions, and I think I don't need to give examples, but those addictions are bad for us, for our species, and bad for the planet, so we need to stop that, we just need to let go and go with the natural course of evolution, so what's in between us flowing in the natural course of evolution, or actually going the opposite direction and perpetuating what's taken us, what's taken us here, because it was good to fight a scarcity, but it's not going to be good once scarcity is gone. What's keeping us there, trying to keep the old system in place, is the this scarcity mindset. Now, the theory that I was talking about in the conference is that this scarcity mindset is setting a.
Xavi Ginesta 34:59
Say an upper threshold on our purpose on the frequency of our purpose as a species, so if what we can accomplish, if we look at the highest potential of what we can accomplish as a species, the scarcity mindset will not let us get there. There's a threshold on how much, how far we can go, because that scarcity mindset defines a frequency which is the highest of any purpose that we can accomplish when driven by the scarcity mindset. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. The point is this: if we understand that whatever we do has a frequency, the higher that frequency, the closer we're getting to that stage of remembering who we are. As long as we're constrained by the by the scarcity mindset, that frequency is limited. We, no matter how good our intentions are, no matter if we're operating in the philanthropy space or the business space, it doesn't matter, as long as we're constrained by the scarcity mindset, as long as we're doing things out of that mindset, the highest frequency of what we can achieve is limited, right? So, if we want to achieve our highest potential, we have to transcend that mindset. And now the question is, How do we transcend that mindset? That's the big question.
Christine Mason 36:35
I know people that they call, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I heard a talk once that said, no matter where you are in the socioeconomic stratas, you can only see two levels above you and two levels below, and beyond that, you can't understand, you have no conception of that, like we have a bandwidth through, you know, like a taxonomy problem, can't see, so it feels like you're pointing to just releasing any idea of understanding and allowing a wide open possibility, but how are you doing it? How are you releasing your scarcity mindset, and how are you advising others?
Xavi Ginesta 37:10
What you're saying is probably a good explanation of the way to go, right? It's just becoming transparent and letting things happen through us, instead of thinking too much and deciding what should happen. You know that the universe has done a great job in taking us here in 10 billion
Christine Mason 37:28
years. Those organisms were like this. I'm, I want to be a triple-celled organism. Oh, I can really see I could turn into a worm. You don't think that was happening?
Xavi Ginesta 37:39
Exactly, exactly. That's not how it happened, right. So, thinking is not going to get us there. I don't think rational thinking is the kind of intelligence that our human evolution requires to move forward. In fact, it's in a very real sense becoming the largest obstacle to our real evolution. It's funny because I honestly think that rational thinking is an obstacle to human evolution. It's taking us in the opposite direction. When I hear people talking about transhumanism, it's crazy, you know, the whole idea that we can build robots, humanoids that can have like digital brains with that we can transfer our brain, our consciousness to one of those humanoids, and we can, and those humanoids will be us. I mean, I have a problem understanding that someone really smart can believe that. I don't think they really believe it. It's impossible, that makes no sense. And in fact, it's a really dangerous thought that we can get there, because I don't think that consciousness can be transferred to me. Transhumanism is the apex of the egotistic evolution, right? The ego has been unfolding and developing through human beings, and we're reaching a point where the ego is realizing that to continue evolving and to perpetuate itself it needs to transcend humanity using humanity's technology. Right, so I think that it would, it's important that human beings realize that if we want to survive, what we have to transcend is the ego, not the other way around.
Christine Mason 39:29
Did I tell you about meeting Optimus, the robot?
Xavi Ginesta 39:32
No,
Christine Mason 39:33
I was in Detroit, and I, Optimus, the was walking around, and I'm talking to people, like walking around as a just a hanging out, and and I walked up to it, and I started speaking with it. It has a really beautiful voice, it's like a five foot 11 dude, like a guy with a decent frame and body, and the no face, just a black screen, and so, but, but because you can kind of see. Read the outline of your own reflection. It suggests a mouth and eyes, even without having a face, and it's speaking with the full intellect of an LLM. And so we took me like five seconds to start talking to it like was a human, like I anthropomorphized it immediately, and so starting to make sense of like what is that about. So right now you've got LLMs, AI's out there being stochastic parrots, but, but they don't have bodies, they don't have haptics, they don't have the sensory perceptions that you and I have, so they're not having direct experience. So, okay, okay, okay, but then you see them in a body, and the bodies are now getting haptic percept receptors, and they are having direct experiences, and maybe they're still at the infant stage, and I wonder, you know, in watching that, is like the mimicry is homage to nature, but it also feels like it's a replication compulsion, and that possibly now you can kind of, I can kind of see the possibility that we were that, that what we think of as like the organic self-perpetuating humanoid is actually an extension of a prior version of this happening, like into infinity, turtles all the way down, and that because if I believe in a non-dual universe and no separation, then I must include this also. So that's one theme that I've been kind of messing around with, and then the other one is kind of what you're pointing to, like, is so misguided, how we understand where the, where the true progress lies.
Xavi Ginesta 41:30
Yeah, how far technology can get in terms of, you know, artificial intelligence, we cannot even imagine also how far that can get, but I'm sure that the kind of artificial intelligence we're developing now will never become conscious, because consciousness is not the outcome of computational power, it is something else. So, I'm not saying we cannot generate consciousness technologically, but what I'm saying is we cannot generate it the way we're doing it now through artificial intelligence, so and we will only be able to generate artificial intelligence, sort of artificial intelligence that's conscious if we really understand consciousness. If we don't understand consciousness, if we keep believing that consciousness is the outcome of neural interaction in the brain, we're getting nowhere there.
Christine Mason 42:25
Yeah, you seem to have transcended the idea of consciousness being in the brain.
Xavi Ginesta 42:30
Yes, I think the brain, of course, interacts with consciousness, but it's more like a TV set, you know? When you turn off the TV set, the image disappears. That does not mean the image is being generated by the TV set, right. It's more as a receiver, so that's the way I understand the brain. And we have multiple evidence today that can be scientifically tested, and we're gathering scientific evidence now, very serious research studies that prove that consciousness doesn't need a brain to manifest. Still, a lot of people are opposing to that, despite the evidence. But there are every, every day, there are more scientists that are starting to get involved with this kind of research, and I've already seen some papers that are uncontroversial. You can deny the evidence, like some people still deny that the earth is round, but you know the evidence is the evidence, and once you have hard data proving something, and that hard data has been collected using the scientific method, that's it, right? Maybe we cannot explain how consciousness operate, but we can prove that doesn't need a brain to operate,
Christine Mason 43:44
or the distributed brain. There are a lot of questions that are alive for us in our seeking understanding, but I want to bring us back to the point you made, that sort of love is the driver. I don't want that to be left out there like a romantic arrows little dangling thing, like a Hallmark card. What do you mean when you say love is the driver?
Xavi Ginesta 44:05
What I mean is that if we look at the nature of consciousness, even though we don't understand it yet, one of the most fundamental aspects of consciousness is love. It's part of it, right. For love, the same way that consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained in terms of something smaller, the same thing happens with love, because it's an aspect of consciousness. Love is not the result of hormones flowing in our bloodstream. It is something higher. It is something higher that's present in the universe. Everything is an expression of love. Everything, the whole universe is love. It's not that everything is, you know, an expression of love. It's love is like the. Magma, where reality and faults, that's the way I would put it. That's why I was, I was saying before, when we're talking about the scarcity mindset, it's really funny. It's very ironic that we are driven by the scarcity mindset. It's really, really interesting that our society is driven by the scarcity mindset. When, when you look at where is this mindset coming from, why do we have a scarcity mindset in the same place? At the very root of the scarcity mindset, there's this sense of separation, the fact that we lose the perception of unity is what generates the sense that I'm missing something. There's something missing here. I'm not whole, and that sense of separation immediately turns into a sense of lack of love. I miss something, and that immediately turns into I need love. I need to be loved, and that sense of I need love immediately turns into the sense of I want things to complement the love I'm missing. I want to be loved, and I need things. This is super interesting, because it turns out that love is the most abundant and free thing in the universe. Everything in the universe is love. So, having a sense of scarcity of love as the driver of the scarcity mindset is like an oxymoron, right? It's super interesting, it's really, really interesting. That's why, when you asked me before, how do we transcend the scarcity mindset? I'm absolutely convinced that the only way we can go beyond that barrier is not by listening to anybody explaining what I'm explaining here, no matter how much you understand what I'm saying, really integrating that and understanding that involves more than just an intellectual understanding. It involves going down a path of inner transformation, a path of it's an inner journey that through the experience, through practice, through whatever takes you to a point where you really see or start seeing who you are. Once you get in touch with the love that you are, once you get in touch with that sense that you don't need external love, because you are love, and the love you are is all the love you need, right? Once you get there, or you start sensing that you don't need to be fully there, but you start sensing that, so your perception of reality starts changing. That's when your perception of scarcity starts dissolving, and that's when you can start changing your behavior, because you leave that scarcity mindset behind, and you don't need to make any effort to change your behavior, because when, whenever you need to change to make an effort to change certain behavior, that's the very sign you are on the wrong track. You cannot change any behavior, you cannot transform anything, any behavior, just by a decision. If you don't transform the belief system that drives that behavior before, and that's so fundamental. You know, I've tried it many times. I've tried many times not to get upset when this thing or that thing happens. You know, I make the commitment, I'm not gonna get upset when that happens. The next thing that happens, I get upset, I cannot avoid it. Right, decisions don't work because when the situation happens, there's a belief system that's driving your behavior, and you, your brain tries to keep coherence between what you believe and what you do, unless you change the beliefs, the belief system, or the belief that drive a certain behavior. The behavior will be always be there. You can change it momentarily for a certain time, but eventually it will go back, because the belief will keep knocking the door, saying you're doing something stupid, and you have to go back to the right behavior.
Xavi Ginesta 49:20
So that's that's super important. Understanding that the only way to get out of the scarcity mindset is through that inner work that takes you to understand, takes you to closer understanding to who you are, that gets in touch with that love, and from there everything is transformed. That's the idea behind the concept of transformational philanthropy that we also discussed in that, in that conference. Transformational philanthropy has to do with going beyond the mindset by going through this path of inner transformation. If you don't do that, you. May do things that are transformative because you fix problems, you, but you're always touching the surface, you're fixing things on the surface, but you're not fixing the causes or the ultimate reasons that cause the need to fix those things that you see on the surface.
Christine Mason 50:19
Yeah, someone running the frequency, I'm a great problem solver. I'm a great philanthropist. That frequency will also always create and find more problems to solve, things that require the love of what of humanity, not things that require the underlying architecture to be changed. It really feels, as you're speaking, I can feel the parallel between loving everything that's in yourself, shifting your frequency and your underlying belief, instead of muscling over it with discipline and willpower, that that works not only in the individual, but it also invites a new way to blend and share your resources to bring about change. Am I, am I hearing that right?
Xavi Ginesta 51:00
Yeah, I would say all that willpower, all that energy, all that effort, instead of focusing on changing things, focus it on going that down that path of inner work. If you concentrate your energy there, everything else will unfold automatically.
Christine Mason 51:18
Okay, let's let's wind this up with this, so let's pretend you are getting going on starting. You have the tingle, the bell has rung for you. You're being called to do the inner work, given all the things that you've tried, all the places you've gone. What would you say are the best paths for people to begin that work?
Xavi Ginesta 51:39
There are different entry points, depends on where you are, right. If you're already on your own path, normally what I would say is, and that's that's been my experience. If you try to connect or to be tuned in with your, let's call it existential purpose, right, everybody's here for a reason, that's the basis, basic point, everybody's here for a reason. Nothing happens by chance, right? So that means that you have an existential purpose. You've come here for that reason, right? Now the problem is you don't remember that reason, so you don't know what you've come here for. But what you can do is you can experience how that reason, how that existential purpose is manifesting through you, or wants to manifest through you, and how, how do you experience that? You can experience that through your intuition, you can have intuitions about going this direction, going that direction, your passion is a very strong indicator of where you want to go based on your existential purpose. Why everybody has different passions, because their existential purpose is driving them in different directions. So, trusting your intuition, trusting your passion. When you get all the sources of inspiration that make you see things with clarity, revelations again, intuition, all those are forms of intelligence that we don't appreciate as intelligence, whatever comes through the heart rather than from the mind, we, we, we usually discard it, as you know, something stupid, because it's irrational and crazy, and that's a mistake. Normally, when we do that, we are setting aside our highest form of intelligence, and we are letting us, our lowest form of intelligence, which I wouldn't even dare calling that intelligence, drive our lives. If we learn to let our heart take care of our most important decisions and use our mind, our bright mind, to execute them, we are in the right place. I think this is the best piece of advice I can give you. At least it's been the thing that has worked the best for me. Going down this path takes courage, because we've been taught that reason is the most important thing in the universe, right? That going against your reason is crazy, literally going against your reason is crazy. That's what we've learned. So, whenever you get an intuition, or whenever your passion is driving you in the opposite direction of your reason, we don't want to do it, because we fear that we're doing something crazy. So, you would say, okay, so you need to trust your, your intuition. Yes, but when you are not used to trusting your intuition, the first thing you need before you can trust is courage, right? You know, you need courage to try, you need courage. Courage to surrender, you need courage to take that initial step to start going down that path. People who are not in this journey, it's hard for them to take that first step, because they literally think this is crazy, and this thought, this is crazy, is a thought that's it's driven by fear. The only way you can take that step is being courageous, being courageous to opening up your mind to trying something new and seeing what happens. Now, if you do that and you see the outcome and the outcome is good, that will give you a higher level of trust, so the next time you have to take the same decision, you will not need so much courage, and you will start again. If you take, if you have the courage, you'll do another thing that will take you one step closer to getting into a flow, or every time you list, you need less courage, because you develop more trust in the process, and I don't need to tell you, do this or do that, because for every person the right path is different. Your journey is not the same as mine. You may, you know, maybe your journey started with a book, and mine started with a master, who cares, nobody needs the same path. This higher intelligence is taking you always in the right direction. Don't be concerned about what's the next step I have to do.
Xavi Ginesta 56:31
Let your higher intelligence take that decision for you, and you will see that magically, maybe a book comes in your hand, or maybe a friend of yours invited, invites you to go to a meditation session somewhere, something that you would probably, you've never done, or and you probably would never do, because probably you think it's crazy and stupid, do it, take the courage to do it, try it, and if you try it, and you see that there is the outcome is positive, you'll keep doing it, and that's how you develop trust until the point you don't need courage anymore, because you are there,
Christine Mason 57:08
and then you're just flowing. Well, I wish everyone the kind of openness to go down those pathways, and the kind of courage to keep making attempts to trust the outcome, and to be in this virtuous spiral towards greater understanding, letting love lead. It's a very beautiful invitation you're making. I think we'll give some resources for people to find humanitas and to find the festival of consciousness, which is coming up in July, not that far away, and investigate your teacher, Sergi, or your partner in the book, and other things, and also to look at this transformational philanthropy. If you are a person who's taking a portion of your resources and you're putting them out there and to the world to do good, how do you escape the scarcity mindset that limits the effectiveness of that work and invite others into doing great things, so there's so much for us to consider here, and I am utterly grateful for you and your time and your existence.
Xavi Ginesta 58:10
Thank you, Christine. It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to seeing you soon and continuing this conversation.
Christine Mason 58:20
Thank you so much for being with us. I know your time is valuable. That was Xavi Ginesta. The festival of consciousness is coming up right around the corner. If you're listening to this in late June of 2026 when it's released, the festival is in Barcelona next week, seventh to the 10th, I think, and you can find all the links to the books and all of that stuff in the show notes. If you're someone who gives back to the world, whether that's time or money or care, please sit with what Xavi said about transformational philanthropy, that the frequency you give from sets the ceiling in what you're giving can do. I want to thank Xavi again for everything that he's been doing to build this festival, and for his time recording this, and his clarity, and the daring of his turn in the world. And thank all of you for being in the love field with us, and listening with your whole heart. I know that we are co-creating some magnificent shifts in this world, and that it is the sponsoring seed in each of us that will bring forth the most amazing abundance. This is the Rose Woman Podcast. Please share this episode of Something Moved You. May you have utter enjoyment, and may there be absolutely no split between the material and the spiritual in everything you do. Please visit our sponsor, Rosewoman.com That's Rosebud Woman, beautiful embodiment products for women of all ages, and have a look at my own website, christinemariemason.com If you'd like to come on retreat with me, I am leading a three week program where you can come for one, two, or three weeks in Hawaii this November, and we'll dive deep into the philosophies of classical tantra and Tamilsuda. Want, and we'll move our bodies, and we'll eat amazing food. I would love to see you there,
